A Case of Misattribution?

[Bridewell]

Do you suspect the young man who seemed to know and who announced that there was a dead woman in the yard prior to there being a known way he was supposed to know? As I recall, the young man announced the dead woman to a group upstairs before others had left the building to investigate what Diemschutz had discovered.

I remember that being discussed on the Arbeter Fraint thread earlier this year.

curious

Hi Curious,

If you mean the young man referred to in Morris Eagle's inquest testimony his name was Gilleman. There's a Belgian named Louis Gilleman in the 1891 census, aged 31years and a wardrobe dealer. He lived in St Georges, Belgrave.

Regards, Bridewell.

[curious]

Hi Curious,

If you mean the young man referred to in Morris Eagle's inquest testimony his name was Gilleman.

Regards, Bridewell.

If he was the one who announced to the men upstairs that there was a dead woman in the yard, then that is probably right.

Thanks.

Wasn't he just a lad? or did I read something that made me think that?

Anyway, just a vague memory here, but I recall someone was out of sequence.

[Rob Clack]

Do you suspect the young man who seemed to know and who announced that there was a dead woman in the yard prior to there being a known way he was supposed to know? As I recall, the young man announced the dead woman to a group upstairs before others had left the building to investigate what Diemschutz had discovered.

I remember that being discussed on the Arbeter Fraint thread earlier this year.

curious

If he was the one who announced to the men upstairs that there was a dead woman in the yard, then that is probably right.

Thanks.

Wasn't he just a lad? or did I read something that made me think that?

Anyway, just a vague memory here, but I recall someone was out of sequence.

I don't remember the recent discussion but a discussion some years back about this and that Gilleman was a reference to Dimshitz. It was a discussion between Paul Begg and Peter Turnball if I remember correctly. I'll see if I can dig it out somewhere.

Hello Rob. Thanks.

That's true. Actually, the scenario would, I suppose, be similar to Christer's old position that, once in the yard, she gave him a piece of her mind and, whilst exiting stopped for one of the cachous. Knowing Yiddish, she might have hurled an insult and proceeded eastward. The club man may have been on the brink, as it were, and reacted violently. Something like that?

I like it.

Say, you should do this more often.

Cheers.
LC

Thanks Lynn, Yes that would make sense to me. I think the clubman would have left the scene after that. Going into the building wouldn't have been an option and he probably would have missed Dimshitz by a good five or ten minutes.

Rob

[Wickerman]

Hello Rob. Thanks for the confirmation. i am hesitant to interpret another's thought.

I rather like this, just needs tweaking to work out her entrance into the yard, cachous in hand, etc.

Cheers.
LC

It strikes me that if they were her own cachous she would have taken one and put the packet in her pocket. She kept them in her hand because they were not hers.

Perhaps,....as BS-man staggered away some thoughtful soul stepped out of the shadows with cachous in hand to console Stride after her being pushed around like that, and offered the packet to her, which is why she kept hold of them.
Winning her confidence, he turned her around to clean the mud off her jacket, and then he struck...

Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Stammer

Hello Rob. Thanks. I don't see why this would not work. Of course, it may or may not dovetail with Schwartz's story.

Now, just to make the gravy thick, do you recall the description of Stammer? "Broad shoulders" and "walks like a sailor"?

Just for fun!

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

If he was the one who announced to the men upstairs that there was a dead woman in the yard, then that is probably right.

Thanks.

Wasn't he just a lad? or did I read something that made me think that?

Hi Curious,

If he was just a lad, there was, in the 1891 census, a Ruben Galman (21), boarding at 50, Greenfield Street, Mile End Old Town - a cabinet maker.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

what if

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"It strikes me that if they were her own cachous she would have taken one and put the packet in her pocket."

Well, what if she took out the packet to get one and was killed before replacing them?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"It strikes me that if they were her own cachous she would have taken one and put the packet in her pocket."

Well, what if she took out the packet to get one and was killed before replacing them?

Cheers.
LC

No cachous found in her mouth?

Jon S.

[lynn cates]

precise moment

Hello Jon. Thanks. I'm thinking she died between their "seeing daylight" and her opening the paper and withdrawing one.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks. I'm thinking she died between their "seeing daylight" and her opening the paper and withdrawing one.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
So do I.
And if there had been a couple of cachous in her pocket, spilled from her being roughed up, then they'd be hers.
As we don't see this, and as she held onto them during the attack, I suspect it's possible they were given to her.

All the best, Jon S.

[curious]

Hi Curious,

If he was just a lad, there was, in the 1891 census, a Ruben Galman (21), boarding at 50, Greenfield Street, Mile End Old Town - a cabinet maker.

Regards, Bridewell.

from: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...ghlight=fraint

At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body. His horse became frightened as he drove into the gate and shied to the right, and this caused Dimshits to bend down to see the reason for this. He noticed a black object on the ground. He touched it with his whip and felt that it was a body. He immediately struck a match, but that was insufficient and he wasn’t able to get a [good] flame, he was nevertheless able by the light of the first match to see that the object was a woman. From excitement he jumped off the cart, ran through the back door into the club and raised an alarm. Immediately Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editor’s office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard.
There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor’s office.
“Don’t you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard?” Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. “What, don’t you believe me?” Gilyarovsky quickly asked: “I saw blood.” Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate. The gate was open and it was very dark near the gate. A black object was barely discernable near the brick building. Once they got very close, they could notice that it was the shape of a woman that was lying with its face to the wall, with its head toward the yard and with its feet pointing to the gate. Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: “Get up!” “Why are you waking her?” asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. “Don’t you see that the woman is dead?”

If Diemshutz could see only that the object was a woman, how did somone else know the woman was dead and when did Gilyarovsky see the blood?

The way this reads Gilyarovsky announces the woman's death before the group went outside to look closely at the woman.

May mean nothing, may be important.

[mariab]

You taking the pi$$.

Not really, though I've just had too much guava juice. :-p

Maria already knows I suspect a Berner Street clubman as we have already had this discussion on the 'Arbeter Fraint's Take' and she didn't like it then.

Actually Rob, I thought you were referring to a beating of Stride by a frustrated clubman as BS and I did like it. (The idea.) A clubman to have cut the throat of a woman in front of his very own Club door when he knew that the police was unto them for cigar contraband and political issues must have been quite a bit retarded. In fact, these anarchists respected women from the lower classes (as documented in their writings), they even sorta cared about the rights of prostitutes, though they might have not liked being pestered by a prossie during their convention/dance.

[GregBaron]

Insult then cut...

Hi Lynn,

"Now does this indicate your research in this area has led to a dead-end street (no pun intended)?"

Oh, not that dire. He is just placed on the back burner. It is like when, a few years ago, I was a Druittist. MJD was supposed to have a safe place at his legal offices southwest of the kill zone.
But I could never reconcile the Berner to Mitre to Goulston movements (oh, yes, I was a "Double Eventer" back then) that were made. Natural would have been Berner to Mitre back to the office--straight southwestern movement.

I admire your ability to change your mind Lynn, when evidence and logic dictate. Seems some casebookers don't share this ability!

If PR had engineered the "Double Event," his Vasilliev story should have come out about 5-7 days afterward--not in November. Could he have expected an immediate pogrom? Sure. But that's not as certain.

But the records are all still there in Palo Alto. How's your Cyrillic? (heh-heh)

Perhaps I can get out there someday Lynn, but as you imply, once my Cyrillic studies are completed...

"Is it back to ground zero in the Stride affair?"

Nearly. Tom's other lad, Albert Bachert, interests me. Rob Clack's conjecture about a club member losing his temper and killing her is not too bad. Of course, the forensics of the yard requires an adjustment.

I rather like this idea too. I can also see it as a regular punter. Perhaps a drunken sailor coming by, rudely propositioning and then reacting with violence once rejected. He may
have remembered little of it in the morning....

"Maybe Pipeman/LeGrand did off her for refusing his pimping offer....?"

Considered that. But why would he want East End turf? Pickings too slim.

Besides, LeGrand had a good bit on his plate working behind the scenes for the "Times" at the upcoming Parnell Commission. And I believe it is THERE that CLG is MOST interesting.

Can't really disagree with you here Lynn. Maybe LeGrand had some other motive?



Greg

[lynn cates]

motive

Hello Greg. Thanks. Yes, CLG has a good personality to commit a murder or two. I think his best motive would be money.

Good luck with the Russian in Cyrillic script.

Cheers.
LC

[Rob Clack]

Hello Rob. Thanks. I don't see why this would not work. Of course, it may or may not dovetail with Schwartz's story.

Schwartz would have only seen the initial attempt at eviction from the yard bit. Like all other theories we don't exactly know what happemed in the second half.

Now, just to make the gravy thick, do you recall the description of Stammer? "Broad shoulders" and "walks like a sailor"?

Just for fun!

Cheers.
LC

Sorry, as much as I like gravy I don't really know what your on about.

Rob