Kosminski & Schwartz

[Versa]

Hiya Wickerman

Hi Versa.
There's no mention of the expression, "Lipski" in the press report.

Personally I tend to put more faith in the police report than the press report....

Regardless, even in the police report Schwartz only walked away after hearing the 'shout'.

Yes... He left... and he obviously felt stressed enough to run because he thought the other man might be after him...

Had he perceived the term 'Lipski' as a jovial, "aright, mate" he would not of felt enough on edge to run when another man walked in his direction. He seems to have felt threatened IMO.

Probably the racial slur on its own wouldnt of caused a grown man to run of on its own but he was on edge enough after the slur to run when he thought he was being followed....

[miakaal4]

From what I have read of this incident it seems to me that Kominski, who was a bit mad, was having a go at Liz, perhaps because of what she was, and he pushed her over. She gave three little screams; "Ow, ow ow!" the Pipeman who has his own interest in Stride shouted "Lipski" at Kominski who took fright and ran off behind the fleeing Schwarts? When Schwarts was asked to I.D. whp he saw, he knew it was Kominski, another Jew, and baulked. What I really cannot believe is that the police would let an immigrant Jew tell them he will not testify and they say, "Oh, okay mate, that's a shame" and place a watch on K, just for jolly. The Pipeman could have been the killer, and Schwarts would therefore not be pressed by police, if he were only witnessing a mild assault?

[Wickerman]

From what I have read of this incident it seems to me that Kominski, who was a bit mad, was having a go at Liz, ......

What makes you think the aggressor was Kosminski?

Regards, Jon S.

[Phil H]

Are we sure that was what heard said (if anything) was "Lizzie!!"

The victim's name?

Phil H

[moonbegger]

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that it was Stride who yelled out Lipski , as a derogatory term towards the man attacking her .. Pipe man hears her, see's Schwartz walking back towards her .. assumes he is the one who stride is having a grievance with , decides to help out by chasing him off . Unfortunately he chases off the wrong man ! He walks back , but all is quiet , assuming Stride left the scene , Pipeman goes about his business .

Or just maybe , one of the two men were actually named Lipski !

moonbegger

[Stephen Lee]

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that it was Stride who yelled out Lipski , as a derogatory term towards the man attacking her .. Pipe man hears her, see's Schwartz walking back towards her .. assumes he is the one who stride is having a grievance with , decides to help out by chasing him off . Unfortunately he chases off the wrong man ! He walks back , but all is quiet , assuming Stride left the scene , Pipeman goes about his business .

Or just maybe , one of the two men were actually named Lipski !

moonbegger

It was probably the killer that shouted Lipski. I'm not realy a Kosminski believer, however this has to be cleaned up.
Has anyone checked records for 1890-91 for when Koz theatened his sister? I'd guess when that happened.
I'm an economist, we always say 'on the one hand this, on the other that.' But Kosminski shouldn't be too much of a problem if we can find find records of that assault on his sister.

Can it be that he was flashing/masturbating, threatening someone wirh a knife, looked insane, that was enough to warrent an ID from Schwartz/Lawende?
It was more than enough for Cutbush to be accused. I think Koz is the best we have, but he's far from perfect, I have lots of doubts.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that it was Stride who yelled out Lipski , as a derogatory term towards the man attacking her ..

It is if you think Schwartz had the ability to distinguish between a man's voice and a woman's voice, and between a British accent and a Swedish accent.

Or just maybe , one of the two men were actually named Lipski !

moonbegger

The police did actually try to trace every Lipski in the area and none matched Pipe Man.

Can it be that he was flashing/masturbating, threatening someone wirh a knife, looked insane, that was enough to warrent an ID from Schwartz/Lawende?

Why would Schwartz or Lawende have expected their suspects to look insane?

[The Rookie Detective]

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[The Rookie Detective]

There's also an outside chance that Schwartz and Kosminski were the same man.

[Lewis C]

There's also an outside chance that Schwartz and Kosminski were the same man.

If he was, then would Anderson/Swanson's witness have likely been either BS man or Pipeman? They're the ones that we know got a good look at Schwartz.

[The Rookie Detective]

If he was, then would Anderson/Swanson's witness have likely been either BS man or Pipeman? They're the ones that we know got a good look at Schwartz.

But that's my point...

Bs Man and Pipeman never existed as the assault never took place.

The man who came forward as Schwartz was likely the man who murdered Stride, and came forward either because he knew he had been spotted, or to involve himself in the investigation incognito.

By all other accounts Berner St was quiet that night.

Only Schwartz brings a dramatic event


Nobody would expect a killer to come forward under the guise of a witness.


But what if the reason why Schwartz didn't go to the inquest, and hasn't been traced anyway outside of the murder of Stride, was because Schwartz himself was the real killer?

And if the police realised posthumously, could Schwartz have been Kosminski?

[DJA]

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[DJA]

But that's my point...

Bs Man and Pipeman never existed as the assault never took place.

The man who came forward as Schwartz was likely the man who murdered Stride, and came forward either because he knew he had been spotted, or to involve himself in the investigation incognito.

By all other accounts Berner St was quiet that night.

Only Schwartz brings a dramatic event


Nobody would expect a killer to come forward under the guise of a witness.


But what if the reason why Schwartz didn't go to the inquest, and hasn't been traced anyway outside of the murder of Stride, was because Schwartz himself was the real killer?

And if the police realised posthumously, could Schwartz have been Kosminski?

Pipeman was located by police.

Doubt they needed to look very far.

[DJA]

Are we sure that was what heard said (if anything) was "Lizzie!!"

The victim's name?

Phil H

Meh..... lip see !

That's what the cachous were needed for.

[Patrick Differ]

I'm not sure Berner Street was quiet since the Pubs were open and the Socialist Club was active that night. Different men were seen with Stride by different witnesses. A man selling grapes. Its not clear to me if Stride worked Berner Street alone or if there were other women working this Street.

It strikes me that Schwartz described seeing a man walking towards Stride who appeared a little tipsy. That could be from drinking or from syphilis since a gait was visible with some syphilis infected people and was worse at night. The ability to walk a straight line is affected.

Anderson, Swanson and the Police in general were possibly biased based on Longs testimony, Leather Apron, and their general disposition against foreigners. They all explicitly state or believe it was a Jew like Kosminski. That said there appears to be only 5 witnesses in 4 murders that may have seen the killer: Long, Schwartz, Levy, Lawende and Hutchinson. So 3 out of 5 were Jews and either could not ( Lawende) or refuse ( Levy, Schwartz) to cooperate.

In all cases except Hutchinson, the sighting was quick and under poor light. This would likely affect height and as described by the witnesses themselves, at least some discrepancy in dress. Plus Victorian men were fond of black and the same types of hats.

My own guess here is that it was likely Schwartz or Levy ( who inferred he knew something) that would be the 2 Jewish witnesses in question. Schwartz lived in a volatile area as we can see from the Lipski event in 1887. This event turned Jew against Jew and Schwartz likely knew he might be stirring this pot again. Possibly told by those who experienced it.

Levy on the other hand would be tied more to his anglicized family butcher Legacy. He was a successful businessman and the last thing he would need is to turn in a friend or relative- Jacob Levy, Kosminski or Hyams?

Someone tipped off the Police with regard to the mad butcher that resulted in the Jewish Butcher theory...it wasn't the tailor, barber or cigar maker theory.

Were these witnesses purposely being evasive? My guess again would be only if they possibly knew the killer.

I grew up in a Polish household with grandparents who only spoke Polish. When my grandmother would get upset she would shake her arms and say Holeta! We thought she was cursing but in fact she was saying Cholera ! Took us 50 years to figure that out.

I can only imagine what H Division had to endure. Much lost in translation? Without a doubt.