Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Kosminski & Schwartz

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • JTRSickert
    started a topic Kosminski & Schwartz

    Kosminski & Schwartz

    Hi Everyone,

    I have been doing speculating recently concerning the debate about whether Schwartz was the witness who Anderson alleges picked out a Jewish suspect but wouldn't testify against him in court since he didn't want another Jew's death on his hands. Here is something that has come to my mind recently though. First of all, both Kosminski and Schwartz both could not speak any English, at least not fluently. Kosminski could only speak Polish and maybe some Yiddish. Schwartz could only speak Hungarian and also maybe some Yiddish (I can't say for certain if either of them could speak Yiddish but I do know many Jewish immigrants spoke this language in the East End in order to socialize with each other). Now, that being said, let us assume that, for the sake of argument, that Schwartz is in fact the witness whom Anderson is referring to and let's say that Kosminski is the man that he saw with Liz Stride that night. So, if Kosminski was in fact the man that attacked Stride, then prior to the attack, they probably were not conversing in English, since Kosminski did not speak English and Liz Stride did know some Yiddish, we would have to assume that they were maybe conversing in Yiddish prior to the attack. Now, if Schwartz was himself fluent in some Yiddish (again I am merely speculating this; I can't say if he was or not), wouldn't he have picked up a little bit more of the conversation between Stride & Kosminski other than "Lipski" being yelled out to him. Another thing is this...if we assume that the attacker (in this scenario, Kosminski) did in fact yell out "Lipski" and it was aimed at Schwartz and not to Pipeman across the street, then why would he, a Jew, yell out an anti-Semetic slur towards Schwartz, another fellow Jew who was said to have a "very Jewish-looking" appearance? Again, this is merely a scenario but one must take these questions into account if Kosminski was, in fact, the attacker and Schwartz was the witness.

  • Stephen Lee
    replied
    Originally posted by moonbegger View Post
    Is it beyond the realms of possibility that it was Stride who yelled out Lipski , as a derogatory term towards the man attacking her .. Pipe man hears her, see's Schwartz walking back towards her .. assumes he is the one who stride is having a grievance with , decides to help out by chasing him off . Unfortunately he chases off the wrong man ! He walks back , but all is quiet , assuming Stride left the scene , Pipeman goes about his business .

    Or just maybe , one of the two men were actually named Lipski !

    moonbegger

    It was probably the killer that shouted Lipski. I'm not realy a Kosminski believer, however this has to be cleaned up.
    Has anyone checked records for 1890-91 for when Koz theatened his sister? I'd guess when that happened.
    I'm an economist, we always say 'on the one hand this, on the other that.' But Kosminski shouldn't be too much of a problem if we can find find records of that assault on his sister.

    Can it be that he was flashing/masturbating, threatening someone wirh a knife, looked insane, that was enough to warrent an ID from Schwartz/Lawende?
    It was more than enough for Cutbush to be accused. I think Koz is the best we have, but he's far from perfect, I have lots of doubts.

    Leave a comment:


  • moonbegger
    replied
    Is it beyond the realms of possibility that it was Stride who yelled out Lipski , as a derogatory term towards the man attacking her .. Pipe man hears her, see's Schwartz walking back towards her .. assumes he is the one who stride is having a grievance with , decides to help out by chasing him off . Unfortunately he chases off the wrong man ! He walks back , but all is quiet , assuming Stride left the scene , Pipeman goes about his business .

    Or just maybe , one of the two men were actually named Lipski !

    moonbegger

    Leave a comment:


  • Phil H
    replied
    Are we sure that was what heard said (if anything) was "Lizzie!!"

    The victim's name?

    Phil H

    Leave a comment:


  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by miakaal4 View Post
    From what I have read of this incident it seems to me that Kominski, who was a bit mad, was having a go at Liz, ......
    What makes you think the aggressor was Kosminski?

    Regards, Jon S.

    Leave a comment:


  • miakaal4
    replied
    From what I have read of this incident it seems to me that Kominski, who was a bit mad, was having a go at Liz, perhaps because of what she was, and he pushed her over. She gave three little screams; "Ow, ow ow!" the Pipeman who has his own interest in Stride shouted "Lipski" at Kominski who took fright and ran off behind the fleeing Schwarts? When Schwarts was asked to I.D. whp he saw, he knew it was Kominski, another Jew, and baulked. What I really cannot believe is that the police would let an immigrant Jew tell them he will not testify and they say, "Oh, okay mate, that's a shame" and place a watch on K, just for jolly. The Pipeman could have been the killer, and Schwarts would therefore not be pressed by police, if he were only witnessing a mild assault?

    Leave a comment:


  • Versa
    replied
    Hiya Wickerman

    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    Hi Versa.
    There's no mention of the expression, "Lipski" in the press report.
    Personally I tend to put more faith in the police report than the press report....


    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    Regardless, even in the police report Schwartz only walked away after hearing the 'shout'.
    Yes... He left... and he obviously felt stressed enough to run because he thought the other man might be after him...

    Had he perceived the term 'Lipski' as a jovial, "aright, mate" he would not of felt enough on edge to run when another man walked in his direction. He seems to have felt threatened IMO.

    Probably the racial slur on its own wouldnt of caused a grown man to run of on its own but he was on edge enough after the slur to run when he thought he was being followed....
    Last edited by Versa; 06-11-2011, 01:21 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by Versa View Post
    This situation was different and the term was meant to be derogatory.... Schwartz certainly didn't take it as a friendly utterance as he claimed to have felt afraid and ran off....
    Hi Versa.
    There's no mention of the expression, "Lipski" in the press report. In fact the 'shout' is said to have come from the man who suddenly appeared out of the Beershop doorway, "and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman"
    Regardless, even in the police report Schwartz only walked away after hearing the 'shout'. It was the other man following him that made Schwartz start running, but this appears a little confused. Schwartz must have percieved more of a threat than what is being described.

    Regards, Jon S.

    Leave a comment:


  • Errata
    replied
    Having some familiarity with Polish, Hungarian, and Yiddish (I can't speak any of them, but recognize them when spoken) The way a native Londoner from Whitechapel or the surrounds would pronounce the word "Lipski" is quite different than from how someone with a Polish or Hungarian accent would pronounce it. If someone with a Polish accent said it, Shwartz should have recognized the accent. Even though Hungarian is a different language, they both would have spoken the same dialect of Yiddish, which has the same accent as Polish.

    Something like the difference between "LIP-skee" for Brits and "LEEP-skee" for Poles and Hungarians. It's a bit of an oversimplification, but I can't really describe it. Typically, when recounting something someone said in a different language, we tend to try and mimic the accent. I think if Schwartz and his translator said "LIP-skee" clearly enough that the officer taking the statement didn't have to try an nail down exactly what it was they were trying to say, then Schwartz heard it in a British accent.

    Leave a comment:


  • GregBaron
    replied
    Koz shouting Lipski...! That's BS...

    Hi,

    Koz could speak English as pointed out by those in the know. And no, we don’t have a physical description unless possibly by the cop Sagar who was tracking somebody of whom he gives a cursory description. Without looking, I think he said dark curly hair, dark mustache, 5’7” which only covers about 100,000 dudes in Whitechapel. Anway, I doubt BS was Kosminski or the ripper for that matter. My take is all of the actors left the stage when the murderer crept from the back of Dutfields yard and snagged his prey. A drunken brawling screamer hardly fits the stealth M.O. of the other murders. Pure speculation of course. If the killer is BS man this could also lend credence to the idea this wasn’t the ripper anyway…Just some thoughts…


    Greg

    Leave a comment:


  • Versa
    replied
    Originally posted by JTRSickert View Post
    .if we assume that the attacker (in this scenario, Kosminski) did in fact yell out "Lipski" and it was aimed at Schwartz and not to Pipeman across the street, then why would he, a Jew, yell out an anti-Semetic slur towards Schwartz, another fellow Jew who was said to have a "very Jewish-looking" appearance?
    I agree this does seem strange and unlikely that a jew would of shouted a racial slur at another jew. Its possible that it was another word that was taken by Schwartz to be Lipski....



    Added to which the description furnished by Schwartz doesn't seem to fit with a person of Jewish appearance (although not all people of Jewish extraction look 'jewish')

    Leave a comment:


  • Versa
    replied
    Originally posted by Sister Hyde View Post
    maybe because you have immunity when you are one yourself, and mostly because people in minority call eachother by with birds names as a game or in a sarcadtic way, like black people call eachothers "******s", even between friends, or just like my brother and myself call eachother "sand-******" or "hook-nose". even people from the gay community tend to call one another "fag" or so.
    These would tend to be people that are familiar with each other though and understand that the term is mean in a jesting, teasing way.

    This situation was different and the term was meant to be derogatory.... Schwartz certainly didn't take it as a friendly utterance as he claimed to have felt afraid and ran off....

    Leave a comment:


  • Chris
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Aaron Kozminski could speak English, as shown by the reports of his appearance in court in December 1889.
    And I see you posted the same statement verbatim on jtrforums.com five days later, and had the same thing pointed out. Odd.

    Leave a comment:


  • sleekviper
    replied
    Well the "N" word is a power word, it has one direct meaning. As with any power word, it can be used to mock it's original intend when others understand how the deviation has transformed. For instance, two people can pass an extremely ugly dog, and one may comment "that is a real beauty", clearly mocking the looks of the animal. Schwartz, is acting on a non-power word as if it were. The situation would first appear to me to have the same effect as yelling "Simpson!" after the O.J. Simpson murder trial. I would assume that the other person in the area holds that name, especially if it is said once. Schwartz automatically goes into fear and flight mode, bypassing the thought that it may have been a name.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sister Hyde
    replied
    and i don't think this phenomene is just new, my grandmother often told me about how her mother used to call her man "stronzo gitano" just to tease him, and this back in the 30's (in her first memories)

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X