Plausibility of Kosminski

[auntyjoan]

Lawender's wife

I have literally just come across something while going through my files which I haven't looked at for a long time versus something I read about Lawender on this site yesterday...

Am sure someone has picked this up before but.... Joseph Lawender's mother in law was Julia nee Hirsch. That was also the maiden surname of Samuel K's (the furrier) wife Margaret which you must all know. Has anyone researched if there's a connection between Samuel K's wife's family and Joseph's mother in laws? Samuel and Magaret's daughter Elsa was born in 1888 while they were living at 379 City Rd. Again many of you probably know this.

[Chris]

I have literally just come across something while going through my files which I haven't looked at for a long time versus something I read about Lawender on this site yesterday...

Am sure someone has picked this up before but.... Joseph Lawender's mother in law was Julia nee Hirsch. That was also the maiden surname of Samuel K's (the furrier) wife Margaret which you must all know. Has anyone researched if there's a connection between Samuel K's wife's family and Joseph's mother in laws? Samuel and Magaret's daughter Elsa was born in 1888 while they were living at 379 City Rd. Again many of you probably know this.

I think you are flattering us when you say we must all know that Hirsch was the maiden surname of Samuel Kosminski's wife. Scott probably knows it, but I'd guess he may be unique in that respect. I knew that Joseph Lawende's mother-in-law was a Hirsch (at least at the time when I wrote the wiki article), but again I may have been alone in that. I very much doubt whether anyone has checked whether the two Hirsches are related.

[Garry Wroe]

Most impressive, Joan. Personally, I think that this material merits a thread of its own. Just for clarification, am I correct in thinking that Aaron, Lawende, and a Jack Pizer were all part of the same extended family?

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes, if there's something to this material of Joan's, can we PLEASE get it on a dedicated thread and not page 200 of a thread no one will ever have the time to read through from the beginning?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[auntyjoan]

Thank you Gary. No, there is no family connection that I've found between Aaron, Lawender and Pizer. The Pizer connection comes much much later in Martin's tree, as previously explained. My feeling is that it's just a coincidence. But who knows.

I was always trying to concentrate on seeing if there was any connection between Aaron and Martin and other Kosminskys living in England at that time. I do think I might have a connection between Aaron and Martin. Additionally, I have always wondered what the friendship was with Joseph Hyam Levy, being that he was a referee on Martin's naturaliation papers, as well as a very reluctant witness at Mitre Square. Was their relationship business and/or social. And I have always had this feeling that Lawender and Harris knew both Martin and Aaron as well. Or perhaps they knew Martin better but knew Aaron by sight and/or reputation, for his odd behaviour. More about Harris another time.

Lawender also must have known Martin and his family at some point, seeing as Martin's sister eventually moved into the same street as Lawender - Norfolk Road in Dalston. Wasn't quite the East End, but a step up the ladder! I don't know the background to the Pizer who married into the Speigal/Kosminski family a generation on but I will check my file again but I don't think I was ever provided with any info on this Pizer's parents.

It would be very interesting to find out more about the Hirsch girls, Samuel's Margaret and Lawender's mother in law. Bit tantalising! I seriously only put the two together today, despite having done 20 years of reseach, but not in the last 5 years or so. My files have had a good airing this week and still much for me to go back through, with a fresh eye.

Chris, I just assumed some of the long standing JR researchers would have known quite abit about Samuel K as he was Martin's brother. I actually had Samuel's wife's details well before I made the connection with the Canadian researcher who came from that branch.

I can't remember where I got my copy of it now - maybe from one of the Percival family, but I do have a copy of Martin's will, has anyone else seen it? Doesn't have any relevance to this case. It's in German because he died in Austria, where he went to live with a woman sometime after his wife passed away. He left money to various members of the Percival family (sister and her children) and also to someone called Lewin who had some connection with that Kosminsky family. As Martin had several siblings, cousins, nephews and nieces I am surprised he didn't share it around abit more. Perhaps they weren't badly off and the Percival family needed a cash injection more.

Couple of other things before I sign off. I know Israel Schwartz was supposed to be Hungarian - has anyone found him on any census returns? I only ever came across one Israel Schwartz myself, on the 1891 CR, he was living at 22 Samuel Street with his family. That Israel Schwartz was born in Poland.. can this be the same witness from Berner St?

Again, I am sure it must have been picked up by some researcher here, but on the 1891 CR for 32 Greenfield Street, there was an Isaac Berliner, aged 78 from Plotzk, Poland together with his wife Eva, 36. Living with them were her daughters, Leah Pizer aged 13 and Ada Pizer, aged 10, described as step daughters to the Head. Could she have been married previously to Leatherapron's brother or something?

At the same address, the same year, there was also a Sarah Abrahams, widow (born Poland in 1832) plus her family. Hyam Abrahams came from Plotzk, the same as Berliner. Hyam was the son of Abraham and Sarah Abrahams. As you will know, Hyman was living at 32 Greenfield St (between 1885 and 1892). Sarah Abrahams, with her children aged 28,24,22,20,16 and 14, must have been the mother of Hyam, but was there any connection between Berliner and the Pizer widow and step chidren and the Kosminski family?

[auntyjoan]

Sorry Tom, I didn't see your post until I just sent my last long one.

What shall I call the dedicated thread? I presume I can cut and paste what I've already written and put it onto the new one? Please advise. Please appreciate i am very new to this site, so am not sure of the mechanics of how it all works yet!

[mariab]

What shall I call the dedicated thread? I presume I can cut and paste what I've already written and put it onto the new one? Please advise. Please appreciate i am very new to this site, so am not sure of the mechanics of how it all works yet!

Hello Joan,
sorry for butting-in, but I'd suggest you simply call your thread “New information: Joseph Lawende's mother in law, AKA Julia nee Hirsch“ or something. The “new information“ part will be useful in attracting people's attention, as there are far too many threads on casebook.
You can certainly copy and paste long (or short) sections from your posts, from Word documents, and even from things posted elsewhere on the internet in the new thread. (Just be careful to cite any quotes by others, as I'm sure you will anyway.) Oh, and pertaining to copyright rules, you are not allowed to copy and paste entire articles printed online, but you can certainly post a link to any articles in question in a thread.
If you have any information on the Lawendes in German (with its provenance from Austria), I or other Casebookers can translate it. But very possibly you read German yourself.

Plus be patient, and after 2 more posts I bet you'll get your PM privileges activated. If they don't automatically activate after your post #26, PM or email the admin.

[mariab]

Auntyjoan,
I thought I'd ask:
You don't by any chance read Hebrew or have any relatives who do read Hebrew? (I promise I have a reason for asking, as we're working on a quite important translation project pertaining to a Jewish socialist newspaper. We already have one translator, but we might need more.)

[auntyjoan]

Thanks Mariab, I will have a look at starting a new thread and pasting my own previous ramblings after the weekend. The will is Martin K's, not Lawender's. It's too large in physical size for me to be able to scan and post on here. I don't read German but it;s clear who are the beneficaries - I don't think there is any relevance of the will for this website in terms of throwing any light onto Aaron, but I just wondered if anyone else had seen it. If anyone wants to ask me something about it though, I'll do my best to answer.

[auntyjoan]

Sorry I can't help Maria, I don't read Hebrew and I don't know anyone who does. I wish I did because looking at all those various names on the Jewish/Polish website makes it very difficult to work out who was who after they arrived here and starting changing not only their "given names" but their surname as well . I don't have the Hewbrew/Jewish knowledge for even that type of translation. I am sure you have all found the same problem!

[mariab]

The will is Martin K's, not Lawender's. It's too large in physical size for me to be able to scan and post on here. I don't read German but it;s clear who are the beneficaries - I don't think there is any relevance of the will for this website in terms of throwing any light onto Aaron, but I just wondered if anyone else had seen it. If anyone wants to ask me something about it though, I'll do my best to answer.

You simply need to click on the casebook forum “suspects“, then click on the sub-forum “Kosminski, Aaron“, and when you get there you'll see the button “new thread“ up to the left; click on it, and you've created a thread. Perhaps you could name your thread “Martin Kozminsky's will“ or something.
You could transcribe the entire document or relevant parts of the will, and at a later point possibly convert the scan into a pdf file on your computer and attach the file in your new thread. If this does not work out (due to the file being too big), you could email the scan to Paul Begg or someone else and they would convert the scan into a tiny file and attach it themselves.
As for the German, no worries, I can translate it.
The Casebookers who are Kozminsky specialists are Paul Begg, Chris Scott, Chris Phillips, and Rob House, who has recently written a book on Kozminsky as a suspect.

Couple of other things before I sign off. I know Israel Schwartz was supposed to be Hungarian - has anyone found him on any census returns? I only ever came across one Israel Schwartz myself, on the 1891 CR, he was living at 22 Samuel Street with his family. That Israel Schwartz was born in Poland.. can this be the same witness from Berner St?

Incidentally I'm researching Israel Schwartz, also in the censuses. The one living at 22 Samuel Street is well-known. I haven't initiated a comprehensive search though at this time. The Schwartz witness at the Stride case was most plausibly Hungarian, but there are some hints that he may have lived in Poland as well, or possibly this part is a mixup. I hope that one day we might find out.

No problem about the Hebrew, and by the way I'm pretty sure it's “Lawende“, not “Lawender“.
PS.: And by the by, congrats! Your PM privileges have just been activated with your post #25. To see them, click on your name (in red) over your post and pull down the mini-menu.

[Errata]

Auntyjoan,
I thought I'd ask:
You don't by any chance read Hebrew or have any relatives who do read Hebrew? (I promise I have a reason for asking, as we're working on a quite important translation project pertaining to a Jewish socialist newspaper. We already have one translator, but we might need more.)

I can read Hebrew. And I can translate very very laboriously. I learned the mechanics of the language, not so much the actual language. Fortunately most of my family speaks Hebrew on a semi fluent level, and one of them is one of the foremost Yiddish experts in the country.

Not to mention two generations ago they were all Jewish socialists...

[auntyjoan]

Thanks Maria thats very helpful indeed. I will have to find some time to do that - my scanner is very small and the papersize very big for the will.yy whoops thats one of my cats tapping my keyboard for attention, must go and feed them.

Yes, I am now able to pick up PMs and will be in touch again with Paul. It's been many years.

I won't be able to post for a few days now as we are in and out over the weekend and sometimes my partner is not very understanding if I spend too long in the study!

Glad you have found someone here to help with your translation. Will look forward to reading responses to my threads. Be back again soon regards Joan

[Garry Wroe]

Thank you Gary. No, there is no family connection that I've found between Aaron, Lawender and Pizer. The Pizer connection comes much much later in Martin's tree, as previously explained. My feeling is that it's just a coincidence. But who knows.

Thanks for the clarification, Joan. Not for the first time, I was getting ahead of myself. It's all very intriguing, though, and definitely merits a thread in its own right.

[Chris]

Couple of other things before I sign off. I know Israel Schwartz was supposed to be Hungarian - has anyone found him on any census returns? I only ever came across one Israel Schwartz myself, on the 1891 CR, he was living at 22 Samuel Street with his family. That Israel Schwartz was born in Poland.. can this be the same witness from Berner St?

As far as I know that's the only Israel Schwartz who has been found in the 1891 census, and the fact that he was living so close to Berner Street seems a remarkable coicidence if it's not the same man. As you say, the thing that doesn't fit is the statement that the witness was Hungarian, though that's found only in newspaper reports, not in the police records.

The later history and some descendants of the Samuel Street Israel Schwartz have been traced, but unfortunately nothing has been passed down in the family to confirm he was the witness.

People who aren't convinced he's the right man have suggested that the witness may have emigrated and/or changed his name before the date of the 1891 census.