Plausibility of Kosminski

[auntyjoan]

Aaron and Wollf

This is my first post on this website and indeed on this subject, although i have been quietly researching Aaron Kosminsky and associated families for nearly 20years.

I have a letter dated November 1992 from an elderly woman who's sister married Samuel Kosminsky, (who died in 1987). As you will read, Samuel was one of Aaron's nephews. I quote:-
"in 1949 Sarah married a Samuel Kosminsky, who lived in Whitechapel, I think in Goulstone Street, near the Aldgate. He had a business, later he moved his butcher's shop to Stamford Hill, we all moved there in 1957 to Amhurst Park. Sarah remembers that Samuel had a father called Wolff, who had come over from Poland in the 1870s or 1880s, he died when Samuel was a little boy in the 1920s. Wolff had an older brother called Aaron who was a barber also in Whitechapel, but he died quite young not long after coming over from Poland, and left no children.

"Sarah tells me that Samuel used to call himself Kaye because the English people could not spell Kosminski! By coincidence, Samuel also had relations in Germany, but they changed their name from Kosminsky to Koch. They lived in Dresden, but I think they perished in the air raids."

From another source I was told that Samuel also used the name of Aaron on occasions, in memory of his uncle. There was ALOT of anglocising of the name Kosminsky and alot of intermarrying. Research was also complicated by the change of given (Jewish) first names, again to anglocised names.

[lynn cates]

untimely death

Hello Joan. Welcome to the boards.

You quote:

"Wolff had an older brother called Aaron who was a barber also in Whitechapel, but he died quite young not long after coming over from Poland"

Given his untimely death, wonder if this is the same one?

Cheers.
LC

[auntyjoan]

Arrons family

yes, no doubt that it's Samuel's father and uncle, Wollf and Aaron, the very same Aaron. I have researched many things over 20+ years, spoken to the extended families and made all sorts of links. Obviously, in this case, "the close family" didn't want "outsiders" to know they had a relative in an asslym, or why he might be there. So not even Wollf's daughter in law was let in on the skeleton in the family cupboard!

[Nemo]

That's extremely interesting Joan - welcome to the boards and thanks for posting

Among the many questions no doubt coming your way is a current discussion in regard to the physical attributes of the family

Do you know whether they are generally "fair" in complexion and hair colour - with blue eyes by the sound of it, or are they of dark complexion with black hair?

Thanks in advance for any reply

Regards

Nemo

[Chris]

This is my first post on this website and indeed on this subject, although i have been quietly researching Aaron Kosminsky and associated families for nearly 20years.

I have a letter dated November 1992 from an elderly woman who's sister married Samuel Kosminsky, (who died in 1987). As you will read, Samuel was one of Aaron's nephews. I quote:-
"in 1949 Sarah married a Samuel Kosminsky, who lived in Whitechapel, I think in Goulstone Street, near the Aldgate. He had a business, later he moved his butcher's shop to Stamford Hill, we all moved there in 1957 to Amhurst Park. Sarah remembers that Samuel had a father called Wolff, who had come over from Poland in the 1870s or 1880s, he died when Samuel was a little boy in the 1920s. Wolff had an older brother called Aaron who was a barber also in Whitechapel, but he died quite young not long after coming over from Poland, and left no children.

"Sarah tells me that Samuel used to call himself Kaye because the English people could not spell Kosminski! By coincidence, Samuel also had relations in Germany, but they changed their name from Kosminsky to Koch. They lived in Dresden, but I think they perished in the air raids."

From another source I was told that Samuel also used the name of Aaron on occasions, in memory of his uncle. There was ALOT of anglocising of the name Kosminsky and alot of intermarrying. Research was also complicated by the change of given (Jewish) first names, again to anglocised names.

Unfortunately this must be a different family.

Aaron's brother Woolf (who was five years older than Aaron) always used the surname Abrahams, not Kozminski, in England. He had three sons - Joseph, Solomon and Harris (Harry), the youngest born in 1900. Woolf himself died in 1944, not in the 1920s.

Kozminski was not that uncommon a surname in Poland, and a number of separate families of that name came to England.

[auntyjoan]

Hi yes I am aware that alot of Kosminskis used the surname of Abrahams.

[auntyjoan]

Nemo

Hi Nemo, the descendants of Kosminski families that I have met, or seen photographs of, have dark hair, probably brown eyes but not blue eyes. A typical European Jewish look.

I spent many years collaborating with a Canadian woman who was descended from one of Martin K's sisters. We spent alot of time speaking and writing to older members of this very extended family, to collect as much information as we could - looking for any connection between Martin and Aaron....... Of course the most fascinating things is one of the Mitre Square witnesses was a referee on Martin K's naturalisation papers. And Lawender, as you all probably know, lived at 45 Norfolk Rd, Dalston. In later years Ada nee Koskinski's son, David, also bought a house in Norfolk Road. His parents moved to the house and lots of family members would visit. Unfortunately my Canadian collaborator died a few years ago but we had some very interesting exchanges together.

[Chris]

Hi yes I am aware that alot of Kosminskis used the surname of Abrahams.

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. Unfortunately, Aaron's brother Woolf did not have a son named Samuel. So the Samuel Kosminsky you are talking about must have belonged to a different family, not Aaron's family.

[auntyjoan]

Thanks Chris. I have taken all the death entries for Kosminski or anything like it in the UK from 1860-1951 and have no note of any Aaron K death, apart from the one at Leavsden in 1919. Do you? I also have to say that, in my experience, at least until pre war and maybe beyond, even if a Kosminski had lived their life under another name, such as Abrahams, King or Kaye, they were still registered and buried under their birth name. Going back to their roots and their true indentity and respecting their religion, no doubt. I would be interested to hear if you have another Aaron K's death in your own files?

Additionally, I find it interesting from other peoples' previous research somewhere on this site, that the suspect, Aaron, may have come to the UK via Germany with some siblings. Perhaps its a coincidence that the other Aaron/Woolf family I was referring to came from Poland via Germany and had relatives living there up until WW2. Samuels' wife made it clear that previously there were relatives who had stayed in Germany and changed their name to Koch. Coincidence too that the Aaron I referred to was also a barber with a brother called Woolf

[Chris]

Thanks Chris. I have taken all the death entries for Kosminski or anything like it in the UK from 1860-1951 and have no note of any Aaron K death, apart from the one at Leavsden in 1919. Do you? I also have to say that, in my experience, at least until pre war and maybe beyond, even if a Kosminski had lived their life under another name, such as Abrahams, King or Kaye, they were still registered and buried under their birth name. Going back to their roots and their true indentity and respecting their religion, no doubt. I would be interested to hear if you have another Aaron K's death in your own files?

No, I'm not aware of a death record for another Aaron Kosminski, but the problem remains that Aaron's brother Woolf didn't have a son named Samuel - also that he was called Abrahams, not Kozminski, and died much later than your Samuel's father.

I think the thing to do is to try to work backwards to try to find a record of this Samuel's birth, or a census entry if he was born before 1911.

One possibility is that he was a son of the Woolf Kosminsky who came to London in the early 1890s and died in 1930. He did have a son named Samuel (birth registered 1st quarter of 1899 as Kosmenky), and some of his children did use the surname Woolfe. Moreover other descendants seem to have believed he was Aaron's brother.

[auntyjoan]

Chris, I have spent some years debating whether to come on this site and share the information I have with everyone. I have four very large files. I know how to go through census returns and other important documentation and do research - I worked on a national newspaper for nearly 15 years.

I posted the lowest thing out of my file just as an opening because I did not wish to fully divulge the more important information that I DO have concerning the Aaron Kosminski branch of that family. Nor was I prepared to come out straight away and lay everything down on the table, including extremely interesting connections between Martin and Aaron K, and the Mitre Square witnesses. You have made me feel like a beginner when, infact, I have spoken to more Kosminskis and related family members than you can shake a stick at. I have had inside information which enabled me to further research things that no one else will ever have leads for.

Summing up the verdict MY FINAL SOLUCTION is - I'M OUT OF HERE

[Scott Nelson]

That's too bad. Years ago I had some correspondence with a "Grant Davis", whose wife was also descended from a Kosminski Family. The American actor and musician, Danny Kaye, was also said to be a descendent of this family.

I'm afraid I agree with Chris, though. It's more likely to be the family of the Wolf Kosminski who died in 1930. I seem to recall that this family appeared in the 1901 census living on Batty Street. Unfortunately, there's no known connection to the hairdresser Aaron.

[Chris]

You have made me feel like a beginner when, infact, I have spoken to more Kosminskis and related family members than you can shake a stick at. I have had inside information which enabled me to further research things that no one else will ever have leads for.

Summing up the verdict MY FINAL SOLUCTION is - I'M OUT OF HERE

Actually, I was trying to be constructive.

For whatever reason, the information you posted above was incorrect, and I was suggesting a way in which you could clarify what had gone wrong.

[Tom_Wescott]

You're a real smoothie, Chris.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Errata]

The American actor and musician, Danny Kaye, was also said to be a descendent of this family.

If I recall correctly, Danny Kaye was in fact a Kaminsky, and Russian not Polish. He certainly spoke some Russian and Yiddish, and grew up in my grandmother's neighborhood in Brooklyn, which was split evenly between Russian Jews and Italians. Which is how he was my dad's godfather or some such. Either that or it was because of a Murder Inc. connection, which was still Russian Jews.

Polish Jews who did not sail out of Poland to England would come through Germany, since the majority or Jews in the Pale originally came from Germany. Russian Jews almost never came through Germany. Firstly, Russians not terribly welcome in either Poland or Germany, but mostly because Russia bordered British territories and allies. My family went though the British controlled Crimea to get to London.

Also any anglicizing of names that occurred as an "Ellis Island Effect" is almost worthless. If the guy at immigration changed a Kosminski into a Kaye, or a Cohen, it didn't matter in the slightest if the guy didn't answer to it. Which is why you find a bunch of people who either appear not to die, or die a long time after they died. People are buried under the name the family gives, not under the name immigration has them under. Sometimes they figure it out through various means. Like my 235 year old Great uncle Michel who had his death certified last year after a third cousin realized he was on a no fly list because his father technically didn't exist. And everyone was surprised that even mattered. Which is to say any naturalization process renders a geneology an unholy mess, especially if you are a member of my family.

For what it's worth.