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  • To Garry

    You make a really good point about how come other police did not know about this and that.

    How serious and definitive can this all be?

    I would defend Anderson on the basis that when he first learned of Aaron Kosminski -- as Macnaghten's 'Kosminski' -- which I believe happened only in 1895, he forthrightly disseminated this opinion to the public via Major Griffiths.

    At that time Anderson mentioned no positive eyewitness identification because his memory had not faded to the point where he conjured up this confusion with Lawende's 'no' for Sadler and 'yes' for Grant. Also this arguably redacted element is after Sims' 1907 opus, in which a cop allegedly sees a man who resembles 'Kosminski' with the fourth victim -- and later sees this man again and thinks the resemblance is strong but inconclusive.

    I would defend Macnaghten on the basis that Druitt being an entirely posthumous suspect he told nobody at the Yard about him. When he disseminated this story to Griffths, and then Sims, the suspect was so disguised that Littelchild thought, understandably, that this was some garbled version of Tumblety.

    Consider that in 'Aberconway' Macnaghten gives the wrong date for the start of 'The Sun' articles about the un-named Cutbush. The majority view is that this is just the sort of error you make in a draft, and then correct in a final version.

    I think, on the contrary, that this is a backdated rewrite from 1898 and, in this instance, Mac wanted to remind Griffiths and then Sims of the delicate nature of what they were dealing with in 'Jack' identified as a member of the 'better classes':

    'The Sun' 14 Feb 1894

    "But at this moment our readers must be satisfied with less information than is at our disposal. Jack the Ripper has relatives; they are some of them in positions which would make them a target for the natural curiosity - for the unreasoning reprobation which would pursue any person even remotely connected with so hideous a monstrosity, and we must abstain, therefore, from giving his name in the interest of these unfortunate, innocent, and respectable connections. We are the more resolved to do so at the moment as a pathetic point in this otherwise hideous and awful story is the tenacity with which some of his relatives have clung to this awful type. They have tended him, nursed him, watched for him, borne with him with a patience that never tired, with a love that never waned. While he has been out through the watches of the night on his fiendish work, one of them has sat up, waiting anxiously for his return - frightened at every noise - apprehensive of every possible form of mishap; in imagination picturing this tiger who marched from crime to crime as some innocent, harmless, and helpless child in need of protection from the violence of others. In human history there is not a more remarkable case of the difference in the view between the relative of a human being and the world generally."


    Of course, Aaron Kosminski and Michael Ostrog were unrecognisable too, but they were, arguably, mere window-dressing.

    Comment


    • To Lynn

      The best description of the killer is of a young, Gentile-fearured man dressed as a proletarian, one seemingly putting an exhausted middle-aged woman off her guard with an easy manner.

      The first publication of the description of the man seen by Lawende was in 'The Times' on 2 October - "of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak".

      This does not sound like a dishevelled, dirty or dodgy figure as might have been expected of Aaron Kosminski -- but then neither does his appearance in court for the canine offence.

      I still argue that the description, though generic, fits Druitt hand-in-glove. I think this was Macnaghten's [veiled] opinion too.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by robhouse
        Hi Abby,

        One further point to consider is that according to the FBI's profile, Jack the Ripper would probably have:
        •had poor hygiene
        •been disheveled in appearance
        •behaved erratically.
        Yes, but the FBI are so woefully wrong in the profiles they create for modern serial killers, that they can only be hopelessly lost with JTR. Any one of us on this thread, maybe even Trevor, knows more about these crimes that Douglas, Hazelwood, and Canter combined. If the Green River Killer investigators had taken John Douglas' profiile and decided to look for a guy the exact OPPOSITE of what Douglas suggested, they might have caught their man 20 years earlier.

        Serial killer profiling is a fad relic of the late 20th century.

        Yours truly,

        Tom Wescott

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
          Yes, but the FBI are so woefully wrong in the profiles they create for modern serial killers, that they can only be hopelessly lost with JTR. Any one of us on this thread, maybe even Trevor, knows more about these crimes that Douglas, Hazelwood, and Canter combined. If the Green River Killer investigators had taken John Douglas' profiile and decided to look for a guy the exact OPPOSITE of what Douglas suggested, they might have caught their man 20 years earlier.
          I am aware that there is a tendency by people to dismiss the research and opinions of people like those at the BSU. Well, I don't agree with this Tom, and I say this respectfully. We have differing opinions. We are not talking about knowledge of the Ripper crimes, we are talking about a knowledge of serial killers in general. I personally do not feel that the Ripper is some kind of anomaly. I think that he was a serial killer like other modern serial killers. And there has been a lot of research into serial killers since the time of the Ripper murders. I think that research and the conclusions of some people might be wrong in certain instances, obviously. But I am not in agreement that "serial killer profiling is a fad relic of the late 20th century." I do realize that a lot of the people on these boards will probably agree with your side of the argument on this, but I really do not see how anyone on here can claim to be more knowledgeable about serial killers than professionals who have made a career out of studying the behavior of these people. Almost everyone on here profiles anyway. Whenever someone says this or that behavior fits with what we would expect of Jack the Ripper... well, that is profiling, is it not? In my opinion, it is entirely valid to look at other examples of a certain type of serial killer, and see if there are similarities with the Ripper.

          I mean, for example... what do you do with the fact that certain statistics have been gathered about serial killers based on direct study of them? Do you throw that out too? In my opinion, it is valid to collect data on serial killer behavior and etiology, and to draw conclusions based on that data... including defining typologies and what not. Then if you have a suspect who fits that data, it is valid to draw tentative conclusions or speculations on such data. The fact that profiling is sometimes wrong is not a sufficient reason to conclude that it is a fraud.

          Rob

          Comment


          • Furthermore... you seem to be saying the profile of the Green River Killer was inaccurate in terms of fitting Ridgeway. Are you sure about that? No profile will be 100% accurate. The FBI even clearly states that no single item in a profile should be used to eliminate suspects. There were some mistakes in the Grenn River Killer profile, but from what I have read, a large amount of it was quite accurate. Like about 70% or more. So if that is an example you are using to prove a point, I don't think it does that. In fact, it is a good example for discussion for that reason... it is not 100% accurate, but it is pretty accurate overall. Which is what a profile should be.

            Rob

            Comment


            • Hi Rob,

              They said he wouldn't maintain steady employment, wouldn't maintain a steady relationship, wouldn't be able to keep his vehicle clean, would be untidy in his habits, would live alone, would be of above average intelligence, and would not write a letter to police.

              Ridgway kept the same job for like 20 years and was only late to work ONCE, had been married for as many years, kept his truck in great shape and running forever, his house was clean, he lived with his wife and children, was below average intelligence, and in fact wrote the letter to police that Douglas told them to ignore as a hoax.

              That's a pretty significant 30%!!!!

              Yours truly,

              Tom Wescott

              Comment


              • Hocus Pocus

                To Tom

                Yes, well said.

                Criminal profiling is a bunch of hocus pocus, and to use it as evidence for the Jack the Ripper murders fraught with peril; the danger is that you will see what you want to see.

                In terms of historical methodology it is much stronger that Macnaghten, arguably, chose a suspect against his own class, and his own professional biases.

                Here is a 'New Yorker' article you might want to check out debunking profiling, called 'Dangerous Minds' by Malcolm Gladwell:

                Criminal profiling isn’t a Whodunit; it’s a Hedunit. But how useful are those profiles, really?

                Comment


                • Tom,

                  I would honestly have to look into this more to give you a proper answer, but from the one source I have looked at so far, which lists 29 traits in the profile, it seems to me that 16 are accurate, 5 more are at least somewhat accurate, 4 are maybe or unknown, and 4 are inaccurate.

                  Rob

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Jonathan H
                    Criminal profiling is a bunch of hocus pocus
                    Just to be clear, I'm specifically saying I'm not a fan of serial killer profiling. John Douglas has enjoyed great success with his profiles of serial rapists, burglars, and even one off criminals. I'm sure this is because there are mountains and mountains of data in which to study to build a stronger profile. There just isn't the kind of data with serial killers that they would need. For this reason, to date not one serial killer captured was was the result of a profile. Not one. Not one serial killer task force has succeeded. Not one. And yet we continuously turn to these men to bolster our theories. Personally, I would bet that Rob House could draw up a more accurate profile of the Ripper if he were to approach this case suspect-free than John Douglas could. Or Jonathan Hainsworth, or Monty. But the fact that the 'key points' of the standard profil fit literally every suspect put forth, from D'Onston to Druitt to the Kozmeister, should tell us a thing or two.

                    What I liked about Rob's book is that he studied the psychology behind schizophrenia and murder. Perhaps now we'll never have to hear that nonsense again that Kozminski couldn't have been the Ripper because, years later, he ate out of gutters.

                    Yours truly,

                    Tom Wescott

                    Comment


                    • Hi Jonathan. I took time to read that article and found that it pretty well sums up the feelings I've had for many, many years regarding serial killer profiling.

                      Yours truly,

                      Tom Wescott

                      Comment


                      • I think criminal profiling is as useful as psychiatric analysis and marriage counseling. Take that however you wish.


                        Mike
                        huh?

                        Comment


                        • profiling

                          Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                          They said he wouldn't maintain steady employment, wouldn't maintain a steady relationship, wouldn't be able to keep his vehicle clean, would be untidy in his habits, would live alone, would be of above average intelligence, and would not write a letter to police.
                          Ridgway kept the same job for like 20 years and was only late to work ONCE, had been married for as many years, kept his truck in great shape and running forever, his house was clean, he lived with his wife and children, was below average intelligence, and in fact wrote the letter to police that Douglas told them to ignore as a hoax.
                          Originally posted by robhouse View Post
                          I would honestly have to look into this more to give you a proper answer, but from the one source I have looked at so far, which lists 29 traits in the profile, it seems to me that 16 are accurate, 5 more are at least somewhat accurate, 4 are maybe or unknown, and 4 are inaccurate.
                          From what I recall, Ridgway was married at least twice or perhaps even thrice, during his marriage he stopped killing (possibly for both logistical AND emotional reasons), I also think he changed between different manual jobs, and I haven't heard that part about a letter from him written to the police. One of his wives has even written a book about the case.

                          Originally posted by Jonathan H View Post
                          Criminal profiling is a bunch of hocus pocus
                          I wouldn't go that far. Criminal profiling is based on a series of logical and pretty self-explanatory deductions:
                          - white male/black male: this was making sense until a few years ago, when races interacted socially in an essentially still “segregated“ fashion. Today, this adage doesn't hold anymore.
                          - age 25-55: Duh. Could have hardly been under 18 or older than 59.
                          - lives alone, has a garage or a cabin in the woods, and a truck-like vehicle: translates into obvious logistic possibilities.
                          - doesn't hold a job that pertains to a career: also duh. Had the perp taken the time to go to school for 10 years and obtain a Ph.D., or become a professional athlete or an artist or an environmental activist, he wouldn't have developped the frustrations which led him into serial killing.
                          - reads/collects violent pornography and forensic lit: self-explanatory.
                          - abused in childhood/parents alcoholics/bed wetting as an adult/early history of torturing animals/pyromania: pretty self-explanatory if one has the slightest notion in psychiatry.
                          And so on...

                          Originally posted by Jonathan H View Post
                          Here is a 'New Yorker' article you might want to check out debunking profiling, called 'Dangerous Minds' by Malcolm Gladwell:
                          http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2..._fact_gladwell
                          I'll read this if I have a minute.
                          Best regards,
                          Maria

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                            Yes, but the FBI are so woefully wrong in the profiles they create for modern serial killers, that they can only be hopelessly lost with JTR. Any one of us on this thread, maybe even Trevor, knows more about these crimes that Douglas, Hazelwood, and Canter combined. If the Green River Killer investigators had taken John Douglas' profiile and decided to look for a guy the exact OPPOSITE of what Douglas suggested, they might have caught their man 20 years earlier.

                            Serial killer profiling is a fad relic of the late 20th century.

                            Yours truly,

                            Tom Wescott
                            Exactly excellent post Tom

                            Comment


                            • To Tom

                              Yes, I meant to write profiling of serial killers.

                              Comment


                              • givens

                                Hello Jonathan.

                                "The best description of the killer is of a young, Gentile-fearured man dressed as a proletarian, one seemingly putting an exhausted middle-aged woman off her guard with an easy manner."

                                Yes. Given, of course, that:

                                1. It was a Kate sighting and

                                2. That was her killer

                                Cheers.
                                LC

                                Comment

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