change in modus operandi

[Natalie Severn]

Good point Anna.I have thought about the possibility that it was precisely because his previous work in Poland wasnt recognised over here and that consequently resulted in him being denied access to an operating theatre or mortuary which he may have caused his morbidity to develop an excess of need for satisfaction and ultimately to know no bounds!I am thinking of his love of guns which he decorated his pubs with, his hanging the stars and stripes flag upside down too in his pubs,revealing a sort of angry misfit .If his unhealthy interest in death had been awakened at the site of dead and sometimes "surgically dissected" bodies at the hospital in Praga,then he probably was hard put to find an outlet for his "interests"!

[miss_anna]

While I share your enthusiasm for Chapman/ Klosowski and am glad to see you state it,I personally dont think JtR was particularly bothered about what people might think.Other posters have pointed out that its almost a reflex action , when the throat is suddenly cut open ,for the knees to spread akimbo.Similarly when the belly is suddenly ripped open for the intestines to pop out.So the very nature of these killings gave rise to a subsequently odd arrangement of limbs and internal organs getting displayed.The ripper probably found that the intestines were in his way if he was wanting access to other organs so possibly he lifted them towards the shoulder area away from the body.
If perhaps the killer was Chapman ,then I doubt he gave much thought to how it was all going to look to the people who found the corpses.He seems to have been the sort of man who if he felt like murdering a woman and opening her body up he did so,without any compunction,like he murdered those he poisoned and was executed for.
I do wonder if the ripper may have had some sort of elation when given such total power over his dead victims----possibly similar to what he may have experienced witnessing anaesthetics taking effect when women were about to be "operated on" back in Warsaw"s Praga Hospital.This last is just a thought,since he had not long undergone Hospital training when he left Poland for the UK some time after the end of February 1887.I wonder too,if like Christie he had been some kind of part time abortionist,hinted at by Wolff Levisohn at his trial[ he stated he had asked him where he could acquire certain substances in 1888 and that he,Levisohn,also a feldscher by training,had refused,"not wanting to get himself twelve years in prison" .
Christie too apparently enjoyed seeing the effects of the gas rendering his victims unconscious.

If jtr simply got his pleasure simply from mutilating corpses he could have struck in sparsely populated areas where the risk of being discovered was minimal.

Surgeons are generally trained with human cadavers. You may accuse me of wild speculation, but i can imagine Klosowski in Poland being trained in pitch darkness to operate on cadavers. A good surgeon could do this. I imagine Klosowski was immensely disappointed when his Polish creditentals as a surgeon were rejected by the English medical establishment!

[Natalie Severn]

While I share your enthusiasm for Chapman/ Klosowski and am glad to see you state it,I personally dont think JtR was particularly bothered about what people might think.Other posters have pointed out that its almost a reflex action , when the throat is suddenly cut open ,for the knees to spread akimbo.Similarly when the belly is suddenly ripped open for the intestines to pop out.So the very nature of these killings gave rise to a subsequently odd arrangement of limbs and internal organs getting displayed.The ripper probably found that the intestines were in his way if he was wanting access to other organs so possibly he lifted them towards the shoulder area away from the body.
If perhaps the killer was Chapman ,then I doubt he gave much thought to how it was all going to look to the people who found the corpses.He seems to have been the sort of man who if he felt like murdering a woman and opening her body up he did so,without any compunction,like he murdered those he poisoned and was executed for.
I do wonder if the ripper may have had some sort of elation when given such total power over his dead victims----possibly similar to what he may have experienced witnessing anaesthetics taking effect when women were about to be "operated on" back in Warsaw"s Praga Hospital.This last is just a thought,since he had not long undergone Hospital training when he left Poland for the UK some time after the end of February 1887.I wonder too,if like Christie he had been some kind of part time abortionist,hinted at by Wolff Levisohn at his trial[ he stated he had asked him where he could acquire certain substances in 1888 and that he,Levisohn,also a feldscher by training,had refused,"not wanting to get himself twelve years in prison" .
Christie too apparently enjoyed seeing the effects of the gas rendering his victims unconscious.

[miss_anna]

I believe that of the known suspects Klosowski/Chapman would most likely be the ripper! The big mistake i believe that people make about the ripper is assuming that his main pleasure was derived from slashing and mutilating. I believe jtr's main pleasure was in exhibiting his victims and shocking the community. As with the btk killer it was important that his victims be discovered.

Klosowoski's poisioning murders occured after his legal name change to Chapman. They were much more sadistic considering the extent of suffering his victims endured. With this modus operandi he could linger at the crime scene.

[lynn cates]

old doctor

Hello Sam. Who needs uteri in their prime? (I'd make a quip here, but had better not--don't wish to be banned.)

The doctor? Well, perhaps he had a taste for older women--perhaps he didn't like the taste of women at all?

Cheers.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

Now, suppose you are SK and just off the boat from Poland and you need disposable cash fast. Suppose further that you possess minimal surgical/anatomical skills. Finally, suppose you have very little regard for women. What more natural than to . . .

...toddle off to remote - and possibly unfamiliar - parts of your adopted town within less than a year of your arrival and mutilate menopausal women on the public highway, Lynn? Surely even a modestly trained would-be feldsher would have known that such uteri thus obtained would be well past their prime?

Then again, perhaps the American doctor (if he ever existed) was planning on issuing a "large print" version of his mag?

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Lynn,
I dont believe the police then carried out any searches of Chapman"s digs in the sense of taking up the floor boards of the pubs,searching back yards,gardens etc.So actually we are not in possession of all that is needed to be known about him and what he may or may not have got up to in addition to poisoning.Added to this there appears to have been no financial motive at all in the case of Maud Marsh,his last victim who came to work for him as an eighteen year old barmaid and went through a bogus marriage with him a year before her murder.In fact her father was a poor labourer.Even in Bessie Taylor"s case,a middle aged quite reasonably well off woman, he didnt inherit .So it looks to me as though he may have mostly wanted these women' out of the way", possibly in case they began to suspect something about him had he let them live.It was also relatively easy for him to get rid of them due to his knowledge of the effects of the poison.
I discussed this with Caz at the conference and both of us felt that another possibility was that he could have simply changed his MO along with his circumstances ,he was more prosperous later in life and he was always extremely restless and changeable for instance he kept changing partners,jobs,digs all the time,throughout his life-it also tends to make keeping track of where he was when pretty hard going!
Btw,it has been discovered that serial murderers do sometimes change their MO and there are several examples of recent ones in the UK.Robert Napper is one who comes to mind,the murderer of Rachel Nichol.
Best Wishes
Norma

[lynn cates]

possible motive

Hello All. I have recently reread the relevant portions of Sugden and deeply respect his (mild) preference for Klosowski as Jack. While I am not now, nor likely ever shall be a Klosowski proponent, nevertheless I try to look at the point of view of others.

The question I asked myself was, If Klosowski were Jack, why on earth would he change from ripping to poisoning? (This is the topic of the thread.) His motives for the latter are clear. 1. He wants a new wife. 2. Monetary.

How could that fit an earlier career where he seems to exhibit traits of a sexual serial killer?

After agitating the little grey cells without mercy (sorry!) the answer leaped out at me: Why COULDN'T K kill C1, C2 and C4 for financial reasons?

I advert here to Mike's uteri for profit thesis. If an American doctor (I shall leave him unnamed) were after specimens of uteri, and perhaps other body parts, of course he'd need a younger man to harvest the organs.

Now, suppose you are SK and just off the boat from Poland and you need disposable cash fast. Suppose further that you possess minimal surgical/anatomical skills. Finally, suppose you have very little regard for women. What more natural than to . . . ?

Does this sound plausible, or does it sound more like the product of unmentionable vices?

LC

[Natalie Severn]

Hi All,
Its clear that Sam believes he knows more about the mutilations of JtR victims than the trained and experienced police surgeons who were there on the spot,saw the victims and Jack"s handiwork with their own eyes as well as having been the ones who actually examined the victims of Jack the Ripper.
Clearly the Ripper cut with speed and therefore,given the darkness and stress that accompanied his haste,he had an apparent knowledge of where to locate organs,even those hidden behind a membrane as was the case with Catherine Eddowes kidney.Not only did Dr Brown,the principal City Police Surgeon who examined Catherine Eddowes consider the Ripper had expertise but , like Dr Phillips previously had in the case of Annie Chapman, he expressed surprise that he had worked so speedily----less than ten minutes to carry out the killing as well as the mutilations in the darkest corner of Mitre Square sandwiched between the 15 minute beats of two police men[to say nothing of others who were out and about].
I also strongly dispute Sam"s contention about George Chapman"s medical training.There is an assumption here that he was poorly trained but Sam has no evidence of this.All the evidence suggests he sailed through a five year apprenticeship in surgery in Poland from 15 years of age to 20,followed by a further experience in surgery attached to a hospital near Warsaw and finally a short course in surgery which,taken together with his previous experience qualified him as a junior surgeon IN POLAND.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that developments in surgery in Warsaw"s Praga hospital where Klosowski achieved his recommendation from the authorities to practice as a junior surgeon had not progressed as to be on a par with the rest of Europe,including the UK, which in 1888 was actually behind France in developments in anaesthesia,caesarians and several other aspects of surgery.

I dont believe we possess sufficient statistics to back up the claims made about M.O."s etc.I have previously quoted Robert Napper currently in Broadmoor for the INDOOR murder of Samatha Bisset and her four year old daughter.This murder closely resembled the murder and mutilation of Mary Kelly.15 years later the police discovered DNA that showed Napper was linked to the frenzied knife,Martha Tabram type knife attack on Rachel Nichols in Wimbledon Common.Very different killings in terms of M.O"s yet both murders carried out by the same killer.......and there are other,more recent killers that have evidenced varied M.O"s in their murders that have led detectives and profilers in all the wrong direction as well as led them away from the killer who,in Rachel Nichol"s case was free to kill again----and did!
Best
Norma

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam,

You point out that his training and experience was not all that much in terms of what we would call surgery. At the same time, in your detailed analysis you have shown that the mutilations of the WC victims was haphazard.

As per this suspect, isn't that a wash?

Not sure what a "wash" is, Roy (the term is new to me ), but I think I know what you mean. The point is that it's all very well to talk about Klosowski's alleged (and almost certainly mythical) surgical experience, but it is entirely irrelevant to the debate about his candidacy if the Ripper neither exhibited nor needed such skills. As you know, the latter is the conclusion (NB: conclusion, not "belief") at which I've arrived.

[Roy Corduroy]

This is a Klosowski thread,...

Hi Sam,

You point out that his training and experience was not all that much in terms of what we would call surgery. At the same time, in your detailed analysis you have shown that the mutilations of the WC victims was haphazard.

As per this suspect, isn't that a wash?

Roy

[Sam Flynn]

According to 2 contemporary Senior medical authorities, the man who killed the first 2 victims did in fact know his stuff

Let's not get into the validity of contemporary doctors' opinions here - not that I set much store by contemporary opinions, preferring instead to evaluate the evidence. This is a Klosowski thread, not a debate about the relative merits of the subjective views of "Doctor X" vs "Doctor Y"

[slysnide]

Thanks for the info Sam. It's helpful.

As for the C5, I question if he murdered Liz. Berner was several blocks from Mitre granted, and Eddowes' wounds were more severe, implying that the killer needed to satisfy his frustration of not finishing the job 45 minutes earlier. What was the estimated time between death and discovery of the two women? I know they were found at 1am and 1:45am, but how long were they dead beforehand, because the first murder that night caused a big enough stir, and depending on how long thereafter the police found her depends on the probability that he managed to travel several blocks west to Mitre Square. After all, it's doubtful he was seeking a second victim that night as a guaranteed impending search of the area would follow, which would therefore justify his rage/frustration in NOT being able to strke again, unless he had enough of a headstart on the police to commit the Eddowes murder. For when you really think about it, there seems to be no logic in hanging around to kill & disect again when the police are on a manhunt not too far east. (okay so maybe the same killer did do it). But the problem in this is that the killer left Eddowes' bloody apron (or at least part of it) a couple blocks east of the Mitre Square on Goulston Street. Meaning he doubled back towards the Stride murder (granted not far at all, but towards it nonetheless) to scribble on the wall and leave when police would be on alert. And this is assuming of course that JTR killed both vics which would mean he'd obviously know of the first incident which makes such a decision to go back to scribble rather poor. However it's also possible that some crazy found the body, took the apron and wrote the graffito himself. Doubtful though. No motive to that afterall. But if JTR didn't kill Stride and only did in Eddowes then it'd justify going back since he'd not know of the first incident. If he did know of it but wasn't responsible then it was risky. If he killed both and then doubled back to write the graffiti, then that's INCREDIBLY risky.

A few myths there, too, Sly. Firstly, the perceived "expertise" needn't be construed in terms of "surgical technique", nor even necessarily "anatomical awareness". It really doesn't take any formal training to know roughly where a kidney and/or uterus are... assuming Jack knew or cared about what he was cutting out in the first place. Second, the collateral damage to other organs was in reality considerably more than one might be led to believe - liver, stomach, spleen, aorta, bladder and colon being variously punctured or cut during the course of more than one murder. Finally (minor point) there was no fog

Excellent post, otherwise.

According to 2 contemporary Senior medical authorities, the man who killed the first 2 victims did in fact know his stuff, and the collateral damage is very forgivable considering that those same men didnt think that they could have done better themselves under the circumstances.

When the cutter gets applause from the Surgeon for his handling of his extractions in the dark, its worth taking note.

I know you dont agree with the comments, I dont agree with Bonds comments concerning a few of the Canonicals....but my disagreement with his opinion is based partly on the fact that he did not examine 4 of the 5 women personally, but suggested the men that did were in error on their findings.

On what basis do you challenge the opinions of the men who examined Mary Ann and Annie?

Its like the old argument here....."well Jack changed what he did, look at the Canonical Group...some he cuts up some he cuts parts out of, no rhyme or reason to which organ he chooses, he just slashes and grabs, and one woman he just kills....there is no pattern to speak of, hes a madman ".........

Thats only valid if you accept that he killed the entire Canonical Group, but its not valid based on the evidence that is present in some of the Canonical murders.

All the best Sam

[Sam Flynn]

... especially with the expertise required to remove organs in so few cuts without damaging surrounding organs all in the dark & fog.

A few myths there, too, Sly. Firstly, the perceived "expertise" needn't be construed in terms of "surgical technique", nor even necessarily "anatomical awareness". It really doesn't take any formal training to know roughly where a kidney and/or uterus are... assuming Jack knew or cared about what he was cutting out in the first place. Second, the collateral damage to other organs was in reality considerably more than one might be led to believe - liver, stomach, spleen, aorta, bladder and colon being variously punctured or cut during the course of more than one murder. Finally (minor point) there was no fog

Excellent post, otherwise.