change in modus operandi

[Sam Flynn]

It needs to be remembered that Klosowski was working in George Yard,Whitechapel, just twelve yards from the murder of Martha Tabram in 1888.

That is by no means an established fact, Nats - on the contrary, it's pure, unsupported conjecture and almost certainly not true.

(Anyone know the emoticon for "Tearing my hair out"?)

[Sam Flynn]

As for Bury, what are we to make of the fact that he was questioned by Abberline and that apparently Abberline did not view him as a suspect in the Ripper murders?

I don't believe Bury was questioned by Abberline, CD, anymore than Abberline said "You've got Jack the Ripper at last" when Godley arrested Klosowski. There's no contemporary evidence for either event having taken place, as far as I'm aware.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam,

Can you let me know what financial gain Klosowski made when he murdered his young barmaid ,Maud Marsh?

I think I said money was involved "at some point", Nats. I'm not daft, you know.

[Ben]

1. Chapman matches the physical description given by the witnesses.

2. He had a peaked cap as described by the witnesses.

3. He lived in Whitechapel within walking distance of the murders.

4. He trained as a surgeon's apprentice.

5. His arrival and departure from London appear to coincide with the beginning and end of the murders.

6. He was misogynist.

7. He murdered a number of women.

8. He was suspected by three Scotland Yard detectives including Abberline.

Hi CD,

I'd exercise a degree of caution when deferring to Sugden on matters Klosowski, and while I'd be the first to concede that there are many weaker suspects, we need to be particularly careful with the above list. For instance, #1 is just wrong. He doesn't match the witness descriptions, and his ownership of a peaked cap (#2) was more than likely to have coincided with his tenure in Hastings, when he developed in interest in all things nautical. #4 may be irrelevant if the ripper murders and mutilations evinced no "surgical" skill, #5 is dependant upon when exactly the killings commenced and ended, and as for #7, it appears that Neil in particular was working from second-hand confused hearsay sources when outlining his case against Klosowski.

I'd have to agree that Bury is marginally more plausible.

Best regards,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Bury's modus operandi was similar to Klosowski's - they both killed their wives indoors. Their motivations could be seen as somewhat similar too - there was money involved at some stage in both cases. Two (other) reasons why neither are likely to have been Jack the Ripper.

Sam,

Can you let me know what financial gain Klosowski made when he murdered his young barmaid ,Maud Marsh?




Maud"s family were poor, her father a labourer.So what was his motive? Do tell me.



It needs to be remembered that Klosowski was working in George Yard,Whitechapel ,just twelve yards from the murder of Martha Tabram in 1888. In September 1889 he was living at 126 Cable Street,directly opposite the crime scene in the railway arches of Pinchin Street where the Pinchin Street torso was found[and about fifty yards from Berner Street].
He was hanged for murder in 1903 ---a convicted [serial] killer of women.[have the book here so can give you Levisohn"s quote if you want----chapter and verse!

Hi Michael,

I am not aware of anybody arguing that serial killers change M.O.'s on a frequent basis. The argument seems to be whether it is possible or not. I agree that Chapman loses points in switching to poison but to argue that it can't be done as if it were some physical impossibility is simply foolish.

c.d.

Hi cd,

You mean that youve never suggested that certain victims that do not fit the Ripper MO as laid out in the Canonicals 1,2 and 4 should be included anyway? Because killers change how they go about their business? Isnt that the standard position for inclusion of Mary Kelly,..that Jack must have changed his MO and what he does to women, cause we all know that Jack had to have killed Mary, right?

Im not singling you out.

Many, many people here suggest that killers arbitrarily change how they kill people and back that it with the logic that Zodiak did, and Bundy did, and Son of Sam did. What they dont address is why those killers killed any women....why did they kill? Did the reasons for killing change?

To my eye, No.. for the 3 serial killers above, and most probably No... for Jack.

The man that killed Polly and Annie was JtR...and I for one see no reason to suggest that he suddenly stopped killing women so he could mutilate their abdomens, and instead killed for different reasons and in different ways. He killed those 3 women like it was scripted...and in a sense it was.

If you see a different motive present in a new crime scene and murder details....99 times out of 100, thats because it wasnt the same killer.

If the motives for killing the 5 Canonicals can be found in Chapmans later crimes, then Id say he is worth a serious look. Potentially...are they alike?

Best regards

[c.d.]

My understanding is that it is a definite fact that Abberline himself questioned Bury. If that is not correct, perhaps someone can let me know (and knowing the people on the boards, I am sure that they will do so). We don't have an account of that interview but I think that we can draw some reasonable assumptions as to Abberline's impressions. If he thought there was sufficient evidence to connect him to the murders, he would have been arrested. This did not happen as far as we know. Since there is no further mention of Bury in police records, I think it is a fairly safe assumption that Abberline was sufficiently convinced of his innocence. There is nothing to indicate that the police investigated Bury further. Does that completely clear him? No, but that is all that we have to go on. You pays your money and takes your chances.

c.d.

[babybird67]

no, a known serial killer. The only known, proven, serial killer amongst all the suspects.

His poisonings were much crueller than Jack's handiwork. At least those poor women were killed quickly and were spared the long drawn out suffering of Chapman's unlucky wives.

I don't see at all why a man capable of serial poisoning should be considered incapable of serial ripping.

[c.d.]

Are there any murders that aren't violent? He killed THREE people. That makes him a serial killer.

c.d.

[John Wheat]

A known poisoner but not known for violent murders.

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

I am not aware of anybody arguing that serial killers change M.O.'s on a frequent basis. The argument seems to be whether it is possible or not. I agree that Chapman loses points in switching to poison but to argue that it can't be done as if it were some physical impossibility is simply foolish.

c.d.

[babybird67]

but he apparently said they had caught the Ripper when Chapman was arrested!

You seem to be sold on Bury which is fair enough, but this is a thread about Chapman and whether his change of MO debars him from being considered the Ripper, not on his relative mertis as a suspect as compared to Bury.

Both are imo credible suspects, but Chapman swings it for me, if i had to choose, because he is the only known serial killer of women out of the known suspects.

[John Wheat]

What Abberline thought about Bury as a Ripper suspect is open to debate if Abberline did actually interview Bury himself and it's not 100 per cent certain that he did. There is atleast one source that quotes Abberline as saying. "We are satisfied that you have hung the Ripper. There will be no more Whitechapel murders".

[John Wheat]

I have to agree with Perry on this point. And if you ask me some put too much emphasis on what the police at the time said about the case. Statements by different policemen contradict each other and after all they didn't come close to solving the case so how can what they say be totally accurate?

[c.d.]

I'm standing by my last statement there is no actual evidence that connects Chapman to the Ripper crimes.

You are absolutely right, John. This unfortunately holds true for ALL the known suspects.

As for Bury, what are we to make of the fact that he was questioned by Abberline and that apparently Abberline did not view him as a suspect in the Ripper murders?

c.d.