change in modus operandi

[Natalie Severn]

I never knew that there was a flag equivalent of "graphology" - but if it didn't exist, you've certainly invented it, Nats.

Well Sam,I tend to think,like Anna,that all these symbols meant something to him.Its an odd thing to do to take a picture of the stars and stripes hung upside down alongside a load of lethal weapons.Had they been hung the right way up,I would have thought him rather conformist and possibly rather military minded- perhaps- but in this picture he looks as though he is enjoying his display of iconoclasm.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Adam,
By the way I dont think he made any money at all from Maud Marsh.She was 19 years old and the daughter of a poor labourer.

[Natalie Severn]

Hello Natalie and Anna. Do either of you see the classical sociopath in Klosowski? The sociopath presumably has no genuine remorse, no conscience, and yet can be charming and gracious as occasion demands.

The best.
LC

Hello Lynn,
Yes,I definitely think he was sociopathic.I am not sure he even knew how wicked he was since in 1903 it all seems to have been a matter of course-getting rid of his women as soon as he tired of them.He seems to have had a lot of enjoyment going cycling each weekend with both Bessie Taylor and Maud Marsh,kissing and cuddling publicly with Mary Spink and having a bit of fun sailing his boat with her and providing" musical shaves" in the Hasting barber shop with Mary at the piano while Chapman shaved---and then he seems to have decided he needed "to move on".So he discarded them--not in a usual or conventional way as people tend to do -moving out,shouting and rowing until one or other moves out of their life ,but by killing them---because he was in a position to do so with his knowledge of poisons and he did manage to avoid getting caught for several years.

[Sam Flynn]

The flags hung upside down apparently deliberately also appear to me to show a very contemptuous and angry side to Chapman"s nature

I never knew that there was a flag equivalent of "graphology" - but if it didn't exist, you've certainly invented it, Nats.

[lynn cates]

sociopath

Hello Natalie and Anna. Do either of you see the classical sociopath in Klosowski? The sociopath presumably has no genuine remorse, no conscience, and yet can be charming and gracious as occasion demands.

The best.
LC

[miss_anna]

Klosowski/Chapman's weapons displays in the form of inverted V s and Caherine Eddowes Inverted V wounds, which are shown at the 1 minute mark on the YouTube video keep going through my head. The video goes off on the freemasonic tangent, but the picture of Catherine Eddowes make the 1 minute mark of the video worth a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22Z5IVgKCXU

[Uncle Jack]

The poison murders were ones for financial gain, not satisfaction. If Klosowski was the Ripper and he murdered his "wifes" in the same style of his previous killings, it would have been obvious. For the financial gain he would have had to killed them discreetly so slow poisoning would be the way, a so called 'perfect murder' if you like. That way no one would have suspected. Unfortunatly for Klosowski, he was caught but it is perfectly reasonable in my opinion to suggest that Klosowski could do both sets of murder with different methods, for different reasons. The mutilation killings were due to his sexual satisfaction, the poison murders for money.

[Natalie Severn]

Hallo Natalie!
Klosowski/Chapman was certainly an egoist and a "chameleon"! He seemed very capable of assuming and disgarding identities and nationalities at will to suite whatever served him best! It was always widely suspected or believed that the ripper could blend into the crowd and assume an appearance of respectability, which placed him above the suspicion of the Victorian era police, who were looking for a "depraved degenerate".

Many serial killers are in fact "copy killers", who got their murderous ideas from other serial killers. It's very unlikely that the ripper got his initital MO from another ordinary murderer. Perhaps he was inspired by political criminals from the distant past, who murdered and displayed their victims to send a "political message". It's reasonable to assume that the first modern serial killer had an evil creativity and could certainly change his modus operandi.

Fascinating post Anna.A really intriguing idea that the ripper may have brought over with him the methods of assassination or political punishments of his country of origin---that is presuming the ripper was an immigrant from Eastern Europe or possibly Ireland-the main areas of immigration in 1888.
As far as being a smoothie,well I have always believed he was in someway able to present himself as a regular guy.
Chapman on the other hand was able to retain the trust of his victims and even the trust of their families - almost to the very end.Add to that that the age range of his "wives" varied considerably from 18 to middle age.His last victim was 18 when she fell for him! And I love that phrase Anna---"evil creativity" ----brilliantly put!

[miss_anna]

Thanks Anna.Yes I remember that thread now and I can see your train of thought over the curious triangular type injuries on Catherine"s face.The lethal weapons displayed so prominently in the photo you kindly posted of Chapman/Klosowski with Bessie Taylor in their pub are certainly presented in a triangular sequence.The flags hund upside down apparently deliberately also appear to me to show a very contemptuous and angry side to Chapman"s nature.Its as though he might be referring to his weapon display-its guns and swords as weapons of war that could be used to destroy the countries represented by their flag---not as weapons of war that could be used to defend these countries as if that were the case he would surely have hung the stars and stripes the right way up?
The triangular injuries to her face may be the killers response to the triangular shape cut he noted that happened as he cut off the tip of her nose,by adding these two inverted "v"s under both her eyes he "drew" a triangular pattern on her face.I dont know what an obsession with triangles might denote apart from a sense of destructive design in these cases that may have satisfied something in him. Its worth considering I do agree.
I had a long conversation with Caz at the conference about the change in M O and we agreed that a serial killer such as Chapman with such a mercurial personality as he had, would have been unlikely to have stayed with one type of MO anyway, throughout a period of 15 years or more.Chapman made many changes in his life--changes of name,partners,jobs- he was an assistant surgeon in Poland,a barber then a publican here in the uk,he had many, many changes of digs -the districts and countries of those digs even--- 3 places in Poland,about 8 different places in London,then America,back to London,then Hastings,London again latterly--- in 1902 close to the river in Union Street, Southwark.His very changeable unsettled behaviour is one of the most significant features of his life in fact.
Best

Hallo Natalie!
Klosowski/Chapman was certainly an egoist and a "chameleon"! He seemed very capable of assuming and disgarding identities and nationalities at will to suite whatever served him best! It was always widely suspected or believed that the ripper could blend into the crowd and assume an appearance of respectability, which placed him above the suspicion of the Victorian era police, who were looking for a "depraved degenerate".

Many serial killers are in fact "copy killers", who got their murderous ideas from other serial killers. It's very unlikely that the ripper got his initital MO from another ordinary murderer. Perhaps he was inspired by political criminals from the distant past, who murdered and displayed their victims to send a "political message". It's reasonable to assume that the first modern serial killer had an evil creativity and could certainly change his modus operandi.

[Natalie Severn]

Hello Anna and Natalie. I agree that Klosowski is a strong suspect. In fact, for my money, he is one of the 4 strongest. In spite of the paucity of physical evidence, it is enough for me that Sugden suspects him and that Abberline did--at least, at some point.

In spite of his "change in MO," we know what his attitude towards women was, and that cruelty towards the same did not prove a problem for him.

The thread on the inverted v's is excellent. Have you gotten as far as the drawings? Fascinating!

The best.

LC

Thanks Lynn,yes I remember the thread now and it was one of the best!
Best wishes
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Sam,

I could have sworn that I read that somewhere. Sugden perhaps?

c.d.

Its hard to tell cd.whether Abberline attended the trial.It would appear so. He was very affected by the arrest of Chapman and gave two interviews to the Pall Mall Gazette in 1903 while the trial was in progress.At that time Abberline was absolutely convinced Jack the Ripper and Chapman were one and the same.It is a very full interview that Abberline gave that suggest he may have attended court and there can be no mistaking his conviction that Chapman was the Ripper.Abberline was living in Bournemouth though.Pity the Metropolitan Police file on Chapman no longer survives.

[Natalie Severn]

At least, we know what his attitude towards women was in the 1890s, after the breakup of his first marriage and the "loss" of his son. His attitude towards women prior to this may, perhaps, be gauged by the fact that he courted, and properly married, Lucie Baderski, and that he helped Ethel Radin by nursing her infant child - both of which happened in 1888-89.

The dispute I would have with this Sam is that on 23rd March 1903 The Daily Chronicle carried an article about Lucy Baderski who was apparently present at his trial.The article refers to her" making a startling statement as to what happened in the shop in New Jersey".This told of her terror after Chapman threatened her with "a sharp and formidable knife" whose handle was protruding from underneath a pillow and which she later managed to hide from him. A customer had broken their row as he entered their barber shop just as Chapman was holding her down on the bed , pressing his face against her mouth to prevent her screaming -I wonder if this was how the ripper silenced his victims? Chapman had had to get up to attend him.But later he told Lucy he had intended to "cut her head off" and bury her body in a corner of the room.
Lucy ,terrified, lost no time,despite being several months pregnant,in taking the first ship back to England.

Not exactly a man a woman could trust any better in 1889 than in 1897 1899 or 1902 when he was arrested and standing trial for serial murder!

Best

[c.d.]

Hi Sam,

I could have sworn that I read that somewhere. Sugden perhaps?

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Does anyone know why Abberline attended Chapman's trial?

I didn't know that Abberline had, CD.

[c.d.]

Does anyone know why Abberline attended Chapman's trial? I am trying to get an idea of when Abberline first suspected that Chapman could be the Ripper. Was it before or during the trial?

c.d.