change in modus operandi

[protohistorian]

All true, Norma, of course.

I guess I have trouble picturing the killer as a great seducer and womanizer.

Hi Dave, I agree that murderous intent was unlikely to have preceded the relationships, but it's still an unusual change in victimology, since there was nothing to have prevented him from continuing with his presumed earlier method of dispatch beyond the steps he took to make it more difficult.

Regards,
Ben

The only explanation necessary is that he found a method he liked better. To an outside observer, It will not make sense. This guy did lots of stuff that makes no sense to us. Respectfully Dave

[Malcolm X]

in addition, the Kelly murder looks too crazed and imbecilic to be a Chapman, he studied surgery/anatomy etc and would've seen loads of post- mortems/ operations/ owned loads of books etc..``coals to Newcastle`` yes, he's more of a torso killer.

but if he was a knife killer..i also vision him as a vicious stabber only, driven by hatred, but the Ripper is totally different, there's something more going on here..something we're missing.

i think with the Ripper, that we're right back to square one... we're studing the murders in far too much detail, and thus getting bogged down, i think we're missing the basics and the reasons why he killed.

[Malcolm X]

Chapman seemed to live in a dreamworld and unable to stick to anything..just look at all the jobs he had, and he didn't qualify as a surgeon... he gave up for some reason.

it could be that he never found the right career that suited him and he chose totally the wrong employment, thus he never settled/ got fed up with his work quickly and hence moved on... probably got bored with his women too.

in this way he's similar to Tumblety, a poser/ bullshitter and never settling anywhere for long.

i expect he got most annoyed if a woman mentioned this to him..i.e called him a failure in life.. or nagged him to pay the bills etc, anyone that upset his ``dreamworld``.... but he was hardworking/ successful compared to other migrants.. very much so, but just not the right career for him and this probably niggled him....whatever the case, Chapman had money; that's for sure.

add to this:- probably an inferiority complex and thus a need to boost his self-asteem way too much and maybe he realised that he was an ugly wretch/ slight build/ marked, pitted face...not a man's man... this was all in his mind, because what makes people like you is your personality.

so in Chapman's darker moments lurked a strong resentment of life/violent hatred that others noticed and maybe a deep hatred of prostitutes too... maybe a prostitute laughed at him years ago..this festered in his mind...............i dont know, maybe.

my guess is that, considering his strong sexual appetite, that he was out very late at night searching for women.... this i can almost guarantee you, or a peeping Tom etc....he would almost definitely have had what it takes to stalk women.... a real shifty character

so we have speculation and suspicion but no direct link to the Ripper.. only a poisoner that might have switched his M.O to avoid arrest.

[Natalie Severn]

yes, good post Natalie

he was a rolling stone that gathers no moss... and the Ripper left Whitechapel too, he gathered no moss either.... but we need proof

Thanks Michael.I am going out now but look forward to more discussion about this oddball Klosowski!

[Natalie Severn]

All true, Norma, of course.

I guess I have trouble picturing the killer as a great seducer and womanizer.

Hi Dave, I agree that murderous intent was unlikely to have preceded the relationships, but it's still an unusual change in victimology, since there was nothing to have prevented him from continuing with his presumed earlier method of dispatch beyond the steps he took to make it more difficult.

Regards,
Ben

I am having trouble with this too Ben,but it "appears" to be so.I dont think he was quite right in the head mind,so if he was completely locked up in his own world, others may have only been perceived in the black and white terms of what they could do for him.And if they failed to be of any use and became quarrelsome, he decided they had to be exterminated for his own safety and well being.I would imagine he was pretty difficult to live with so his "wives" may well have nagged him .

Best
Norma

[Ben]

All true, Norma, of course.

I guess I have trouble picturing the killer as a great seducer and womanizer.

Hi Dave, I agree that murderous intent was unlikely to have preceded the relationships, but it's still an unusual change in victimology, since there was nothing to have prevented him from continuing with his presumed earlier method of dispatch beyond the steps he took to make it more difficult.

Regards,
Ben

[Malcolm X]

He could have Ben, and its an interesting point.But in an unconventional sort of way Chapman appears to have been quite a romantic character-we hear of him "kissing Mary Spink" and upsetting his landlady by conducting a rather" indiscreet affair" with her in the lodging house where they appear to have met.
The musical shaves he and Mary put on ,off beat though they were,may suggest more than a touch of a fantasy world he had created -also sailing up and down the coast posing as a skipper in his boat for all to see- "The Mosquito" at Hastings,while telling another young woman he took up with -while living with Mary in Hastings- that he was the manager of a piano forte shop.In fact he seems to have been a Walter Mitty type character living in this fantasy world a lot of the time where as king of the castle ,he boasted about adventures at sea,posed as an American---even telling the judge at his murder trial that he was American and displaying the stars and stripes in his pubs at the same time telling everybody he was a "big game hunter".
All this fits with him chasing round after women,quickly seducing them with his kissing and romantic talk,dumping them when he lost interest and moving rapidly onto his next "hobby"-----and his "hobbies" certainly seem to have been varied,as was his need to change partners ,addresses and jobs every year or so .

yes, good post Natalie

he was a rolling stone that gathers no moss... and the Ripper left Whitechapel too, he gathered no moss either.... but we need proof

[protohistorian]

Ben, your assuming murderous intent preceeded the relationship. It is possible, but very unlikely.

[Natalie Severn]

Or he could have avoided that "dangerous" problem altogether by simply not marrying his indended victims, Norma.

Cheers,
Ben

He could have Ben, and its an interesting point.But in an unconventional sort of way Chapman appears to have been quite a romantic character-we hear of him "kissing Mary Spink" and upsetting his landlady by conducting a rather" indiscreet affair" with her in the lodging house where they appear to have met.
The musical shaves he and Mary put on ,off beat though they were,may suggest more than a touch of a fantasy world he had created -also sailing up and down the coast posing as a skipper in his boat for all to see- "The Mosquito" at Hastings,while telling another young woman he took up with -while living with Mary in Hastings- that he was the manager of a piano forte shop.In fact he seems to have been a Walter Mitty type character living in this fantasy world a lot of the time where as king of the castle ,he boasted about adventures at sea,posed as an American---even telling the judge at his murder trial that he was American and displaying the stars and stripes in his pubs at the same time telling everybody he was a "big game hunter".
All this fits with him chasing round after women,quickly seducing them with his kissing and romantic talk,dumping them when he lost interest and moving rapidly onto his next "hobby"-----and his "hobbies" certainly seem to have been varied,as was his need to change partners ,addresses and jobs every year or so .

[protohistorian]

yeah, sure, Mr. Spontaneous and idle threats!

[Malcolm X]

But Klosowski was a killer.

So when he threatened to cut his wife"s head off and told her nobody would know because he would simply say she had "gone to New York",it was probably what he would have done,if she hadnt upped and left him there and then and made her way back to England from New Jersey.

or did he say it in the heat of the moment, but didn't meant it.... we just cant tell can we.

[Ben]

He could hardly mutilate them---much too dangerous.Poison,he wrongly believed,wouldnt be suspected in their case.

Or he could have avoided that "dangerous" problem altogether by simply not marrying his indended victims, Norma.

Cheers,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

yea' i know you didnt ...but that's the sort of heavyweight ammo we need....owning a sharp knife makes you no killer..i've got one under my bed too, it's been there for 10 years....just in case!

you've loads of enthusiasm..keep going

But Klosowski was a killer.

So when he threatened to cut his wife"s head off and told her nobody would know because he would simply say she had "gone to New York",it was probably what he would have done,if she hadnt upped and left him there and then and made her way back to England from New Jersey.

[Malcolm X]

Malcolm X

I never said he did the same in America.He apparently owned a very sharp knife that he threatened to cut off his wife"s head with [according to the Crime reporter at his trial and reported in the Daily Chronicle of 23 March 1903].He MAY have committed one or two murders on the homeless or women from the vagrant community of New Jersey,but we as yet know nothing of them.

yea' i know you didnt ...but that's the sort of heavyweight ammo we need....owning a sharp knife makes you no killer..i've got one under my bed too, it's been there for 10 years....just in case!

you've loads of enthusiasm..keep going

[Natalie Severn]

Chapman/Kloswoski is only ever considered as Jack because of Abberline.

Why Abberline would link slash and thrash Jack with poisoner Chapman is interesting. Makes no sense because I can't see Jack deciding after Kelly that he doesn't want to murder women that way any more. He's a pro. Why change to poison?

Which makes you wonder about Abberline. He knew the area. Yes. I feel like I'm breaking a confidence here but just how smart was he?

I always thought Abberline was the man but I'm starting to wonder.

Was he just getting old?

Come on----he was probably murdering homeless women throughout---and constantly on the move to cover his tracks.Probably,when his wives got wind of something,it made him paranoid about them.He could hardly mutilate them---much too dangerous.Poison,he wrongly believed,wouldnt be suspected in their case.



Malcolm X

I never said he did the same in America.He apparently owned a very sharp knife that he threatened to cut off his wife"s head with [according to the Crime reporter at his trial and reported in the Daily Chronicle of 23 March 1903].He MAY have committed one or two murders on the homeless or women from the vagrant community of New Jersey,but we as yet know nothing of them.