change in modus operandi

[Natalie Severn]

Possible but such a tight squeeze that Sam!The Radans weren"t even likely to have been there in December 1888----they had already moved on.Its unlikely their lodger was allowed to stay with them right up to the last minute in December 1888.
In the meantime,there is no record whatsoever of him in Poland after February 1887,whereas there were lots of formal papers found on him from Poland up to and including February1887.So in fact an earlier arrival here is looking more likely than a later one.
Remember the date of his arrival here has always been thought to have been June 1887.And that certainly "fits" as you put it.It gives him time to prepare for coming here after he had paid his bills to the hospital at the end of February 1887 etc .
But no doubt all this can be found out by going to Southwark Police Courts at some point, where the court papers were held ---at least they were until recently,I believe.

[Sam Flynn]

The Post Office London Directory Lists Radin in 70 West India Dock Road ONLY in 1888. Severin... must also have lived there in 1888.

Fine - but we don't know when the Radins moved out, nor precisely when Klosowski moved in, for that matter.

Severin must have been living there five months before December 14th 1888 to be included in the 1889 PO Directory.

Correct, which is why I said that Klosowski might have moved in with the Radins in July 1888, for all we know (7 + 5 = 12, in "month-speak"). It fits perfectly well with the known facts - not that I'm suggesting we'll ever know for certain, nor even that he definitely moved in with the Radins in July '88. All I'm saying is that, whilst there is plenty of evidence that confirms Klosowski was in East London in 1888, we have no evidence at all that suggests he was there a year earlier.

[Natalie Severn]

Nats, I posted quite recently a newspaper report for the PO Directory that said they were accepting updates up until the 14th December 1888, when the presses ran. The publishers prided themselves on its being the most up-to-date reference of its kind, so I hardly think they'd have imposed a deliberate restriction that would have made them one year out of date.

Besides, Klosowski appeared in the 1889 PO Directory.

Sam,
Lets try to get this straight:

The Post Office London Directory Lists Radin in 70 West India Dock Road ONLY in 1888.Therefore, if Severin Klosowski lived with the Radan"s there,as Mrs Radan said he did at his trial in 1903,then he too lived there in 1888.Mrs Radan said at his trial that he lived with them there for "five months".So at some point in 1888 Severin was living with the Radans for five months of that year

In order for them to have been included for an 1888 entry,their names had to be placed by 14th December 1887 AT THE VERY LATEST.
Therefore Mr and Mrs Radan must have been living there from at latest, 14th December 1887 through the year.Severin must have been living there for five months before December 14th 1888, because in order for Severin Klosowski to be included in the 1889 Post Office Directory,he had to have moved from West India Dock Road and to have been living at 126 Cable Street by December 14th of 1888.
Mrs Radan said this under oath at his trial and the Post Office Directory would not have invented these entries..

Best

[Sam Flynn]

Sam,
I think you are mistaken.In order for Severin Klosowski to be included in the 1888 Post Office Directory HE HAD to be living at the address by December 2nd of the previous year----ie before December 2nd 1887.These were the regulations.

Nats, I posted quite recently a newspaper report for the PO Directory that said they were accepting updates up until the 14th December 1888, when the presses ran. The publishers prided themselves on its being the most up-to-date reference of its kind, so I hardly think they'd have imposed a deliberate restriction that would have made them one year out of date.

Besides, Klosowski appeared in the 1889 PO Directory.

Thanks for that Nats.

Ok.... so we have a stable chosen methodology that successfully kills twice(?)....and a delayed gratification scenario where he is a primary care giver and simultaneously, the murderer. Cruelty has to be a dominant trait I think. And taking the praise for the care he gave by those who witnessed his "devotion" would feed feelings of superiority. And he fakes or acts his concern....so he desires to be seen positively by the community.

Im just rambling...sorry...but Im trying to imagine a man who seems to be conscious of the opinion of others starting out being so callous he slits women open in public. The Ripper risked....did Severin? He knew pharmacology...he should have been more clever about it perhaps, but was it a great risk?

All the best Nats

[Natalie Severn]

Sam,
I think you are mistaken.In order for Severin Klosowski to be included in the 1888 Post Office Directory HE HAD to be living at the address by December 2nd of the previous year----ie before December 2nd 1887.These were the regulations.So he was in England, living with the Radans by, at latest,2nd December 1887- give or take a week or two.Certainly before the close of the year 1887.



Dave ,
Thanks for that info,



Mike,
All three women suffered the same deaths.In each case he stood to gain nothing in financial terms from their deaths.Their families or friends, as well as Severin ,helped look after them.

[Natalie Severn]

Forgive what may be a simple question regarding the convictions, but was there any major difference in the way he poisoned the two women? Was the earlier one more grievously afflicted while alive... is what I'm really asking.

Davids mentioning his normalcy as relates to his medical interests piqued the interest...just curious if we are seeing experiments in the form of murders.

Thanks for any help.
Best regards.

No.He chose arsenic in the three cases we know about---apparently because it didnt arouse suspicion.He attended to the women daily needs.

Cheers Mike

Forgive what may be a simple question regarding the convictions, but was there any major difference in the way he poisoned the two women? Was the earlier one more grievously afflicted while alive... is what I'm really asking.

Davids mentioning his normalcy as relates to his medical interests piqued the interest...just curious if we are seeing experiments in the form of murders.

Thanks for any help.
Best regards.

[Sam Flynn]

Similar praise for his behaviour and attitude was made by ... the Radans after he had stayed with them for five months in 1887.

We don't know that he stayed with the Radins in 1887, Nats. He might have been there from July 1888, for all we know, and it would still fit with the known facts.

You're right in pointing out that Klosowski helped nurse Ethel's sick child, but that doesn't quite count as "praise for his behaviour and attitude", although I have no reason to doubt that Severin did a splendid job.

[protohistorian]

Hi Dave,
I have worked with people whom you term "sociopathic".The term psychopath was used in day to day discussions here rather than sociopath.
It was my understanding that behaviour difficulties in sociopathy usually emerge during childhood -----which doesnt at all seem to match what we know of Severin Klosowski.
For example,his conduct was noted by Rappaport as being beyond reproach,and he knew him from the age of 15 to 20 ie during the whole of his 5 year apprenticeship,about which he wrote that Severin had "studied with zeal the science of surgery".Similar praise for his behaviour and attitude was made by the medical practioners at The Praga hospital in Warsaw where he did the short practical course and by the Radans after he had stayed with them for five months in 1887.He even helped them nurse their child better from a worrying illness. In other words ,assuming him to have been "sociopathic" the "manifestation" of such behaviour seems to have begun around the time of his bigamous marriage to Lucy Baderski [Oct.1889]----mind he had apparently married a woman in Poland,had had two children with her and then abandoned her when he came to England! She even came over from Poland accompanied by their two children and confonted him when he was married to Lucy Baderski.She was apparently sent packing but Lucy remembered the incident well.Later, when he "married" Annie Chapman-1893/4, he had no sooner settled in with her than he proposed she should be prepared to live in a "menage a trois" with a young woman he had recently met and taken a fancy to.Annie seems to have cottoned on to him at this point because she gave him short shrift ,dumped him and never saw him again.
And ofcourse ,prior to this, he was clearly quite brutal to Lucy Baderski in New Jersey or she would not have fled from him in fear.
But there seems to be no evidence of childhood/adolescent behaviour disorder.Can I have your opinion on this?
Thanks

Norma

The statistical data points that way in modern western culture. Severin was neither modern or western however. Additionally we have very little to reference in terms of his childhood. He was apprenticed at 15. This could well be a case where socially approved putlets for behaviors was aquired early in life. We have scant data to work from. Both his leaving Praga for the russian army, and his abandoning his polish wife seem to indicate the process was in motion at the time of immigration. The only portion of Severin's life to appear stable is his study of medicine. It could easily be that every coping mechanism known to young Severin was geared that way. The certificates he had at arrest were in fact "trophies" from the only time Severin had appeared normal. Respectfully Dave

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Dave,
I have worked with people whom you term "sociopathic".The term psychopath was used in day to day discussions here rather than sociopath.
It was my understanding that behaviour difficulties in sociopathy usually emerge during childhood -----which doesnt at all seem to match what we know of Severin Klosowski.
For example,his conduct was noted by Rappaport as being beyond reproach,and he knew him from the age of 15 to 20 ie during the whole of his 5 year apprenticeship,about which he wrote that Severin had "studied with zeal the science of surgery".Similar praise for his behaviour and attitude was made by the medical practioners at The Praga hospital in Warsaw where he did the short practical course and by the Radans after he had stayed with them for five months in 1887.He even helped them nurse their child better from a worrying illness. In other words ,assuming him to have been "sociopathic" the "manifestation" of such behaviour seems to have begun around the time of his bigamous marriage to Lucy Baderski [Oct.1889]----mind he had apparently married a woman in Poland,had had two children with her and then abandoned her when he came to England! She even came over from Poland accompanied by their two children and confonted him when he was married to Lucy Baderski.She was apparently sent packing but Lucy remembered the incident well.Later, when he "married" Annie Chapman-1893/4, he had no sooner settled in with her than he proposed she should be prepared to live in a "menage a trois" with a young woman he had recently met and taken a fancy to.Annie seems to have cottoned on to him at this point because she gave him short shrift ,dumped him and never saw him again.
And ofcourse ,prior to this, he was clearly quite brutal to Lucy Baderski in New Jersey or she would not have fled from him in fear.
But there seems to be no evidence of childhood/adolescent behaviour disorder.Can I have your opinion on this?
Thanks

Norma

At first read that was quite interesting Dave, thanks. Ill re-read it and digest it some more.

Thanks again Mate.

[protohistorian]

Plausible depending on the psyche of the person. Normative people have socially encoded value systems that prevent such behavior. These, as far as we know, are gathered between the ages of 4 and 13, in a formative period well known among humans. Such a person would show signs of impaired or missing restraint, relatively early, as situations arose which made the subject employ tainted value systems. For a normative person to engage in such activities implies significant contempt for established rules, in concert with an elevated sense of self worth. Both of these personality features would be developed enough for an outside observer to see. Once these two features pass the end of the formative stage they often accumulate other dysfunctional values based on experiential learning of the subject. Prolonged accumulation of such value systems frequently results in sociopathy, a condition where the subject no longer sees himself within a social system, but rather above it. These personalities rarely achieve anything close to stability, and as such vary widely in behaviors. Long term employment is usually an indicator that sociopathy has not yet formed, the same is true of longstanding, close, relationships. Respectfully Dave

If we except the notion of an "addiction" to blood or gore we immediately encounter a problem. Just as with chemical addicts, the addiction would need maintenance. With no external force to supply change, we should expect many more "rippings". The probability is that blood and gore were neutral values in the killers mind, that is they we neither preferred (motivational) or negative perceived (restraining). To the 21st century mind it is a bit odd, but even today, people who frequently handle blood and gore do not place + or - values on it. It is consequential in certain types of activities, like hunting deer or prostitutes. To assert a positive value immediately entails at least a static pace of rippings, or quite possibly an increase. To assert a negative value, is to say that gore in some method, acted as a restraining factor, which MJK denies strongly. Respectfully Dave

Hi David,

That makes sense, but I do have a scenario where I think an addiction to blood and gore might be met on a daily basis, without murder as a required element.

Its suggested in at least 3 Canonical deaths by the medical personnel that the killer exhibits some anatomical knowledge in his actions. Anyone working inside a hospital might get daily lessons on anatomy...and may desire to be the surgeon himself...but with practical lessons rather than through formal education he cannot afford. He might even get a chance some nights to cut cadavers a bit.

This sort of person could also access organ samples if a Teaching hospital.

What if you have a working class poor man working perhaps as a Janitor in a hospital, or an even more gruesome, area clinic, ... who has unnatural inclinations towards scenes of blood and gore, a lack of normal emotions like guilt, pity or compassion, and a decided interest in doing some cutting himself.

I could even add speculatively... with some circumstantial support found in the known evidence, that such a man might be game if approached and offered 20L for a female organ. There were 2 stories of an American Doctor that approached Teaching Hospitals the year before the murders offering to buy uteri at 20L each....as Sam Flynn once calculated, with an approximate modern equivalent value of 1500L Sterling. One hospital denied the story, one did not. I also do know of a "Dr to The Stars" if you will, that was in London at that time experimenting with prolonging life, with eternal life being his goal. He had many socialite patients and members of his "club", including a titled Carnarvon...in the basement of a hotel that gets demolished the year after the killings. His procedures involved the implantation of a uterus..in both male and female patients...thinking the link to longevity had bio-chemical foundations in the reproductive organs.

And the guy that works in a hospital might be easily missed if he dies or disappears after the spree is assumed over.

I think a profile like this is plausible myself.

Best regards David.

[protohistorian]

If we except the notion of an "addiction" to blood or gore we immediately encounter a problem. Just as with chemical addicts, the addiction would need maintenance. With no external force to supply change, we should expect many more "rippings". The probability is that blood and gore were neutral values in the killers mind, that is they we neither preferred (motivational) or negative perceived (restraining). To the 21st century mind it is a bit odd, but even today, people who frequently handle blood and gore do not place + or - values on it. It is consequential in certain types of activities, like hunting deer or prostitutes. To assert a positive value immediately entails at least a static pace of rippings, or quite possibly an increase. To assert a negative value, is to say that gore in some method, acted as a restraining factor, which MJK denies strongly. Respectfully Dave