change in modus operandi

[Natalie Severn]

That being the case, Nats, and assuming he kept up the Ripper's "burn-rate", we might be looking at anywhere between 50 and 180 missing persons in London or Hastings, in the 9-year period between the Autumn of Terror and the "Christmas of Chunder" during which Mary Spink died. Where are they? I can understand the odd missing waif and stray not making the headlines, but surely not all those.

The serial killer I was thinking of earlier Sam was named Andrei Chikatilo,also known as The Rostov Ripper serial killer.It was really only his "confessions" that led police to his victims,mostly homeless women or prostitutes but later children too.
He began his killings in 1978,stopped for 6 years until 1982 ,then started again by approaching young vagrants at bus and railway stations and luring them to woods on the promise of money or alcohol.There was another long lapse between 1982 and 1988 when he restarted.Most victims were buried in shallow graves.There were changes in modus operandi though he was fixated by knifings.There were bits of cannibalism too.
He had killed at least 52 women and children by 1992 ,ie a period of unsuspected killings lasting fourteen years by the time he was arrested.

Dennis Nielsen killed upwards of 15 young men.He hid some in his garden ,some in his house but also used several other methods of disposal.He too had a long reign of terror though not so long as the Rostov ripper which was 14 years.

Chapman

[Sam Flynn]

I can see a situation developing where he chose his homeless victims more carefully and disposed of them more carefully,than previously.

That being the case, Nats, and assuming he kept up the Ripper's "burn-rate", we might be looking at anywhere between 50 and 180 missing persons in London or Hastings, in the 9-year period between the Autumn of Terror and the "Christmas of Chunder" during which Mary Spink died. Where are they? I can understand the odd missing waif and stray not making the headlines, but surely not all those.

[Natalie Severn]

The Ripper left them where they were, Nats - that's not disposing of them. Why the sudden shift to "discreet disposal" after November 9th, 1888? One might say that the "other" subsequent victims "just went missing" and were never reported, which is why we've never heard of them - but isn't that a stretch too far?

Given the rate at which the Ripper struck, and his apparently "local" mode of operation, we'd have seen at least some indication that something odd was going on in whichever locale Klosowski lived at any given time. The odd "missing person" is one thing, but dozens, or even scores of them over a period of 9 years would surely have caused some suspicions to arise.

Sam,
Some serial killers ,even very recently,went on and on over many years---I cant remember the chap in the Ukraine who murdered hundreds over many years--- must find it later----but I can see a situation developing where he chose his homeless victims more carefully and disposed of them more carefully,than previously.
Chapman remember was terrified of the gallows----he shook and trembled and had to be supported right to the last so IF he was the ripper and had had a close shave two or three times,he may have simply decided to quit killing in the streets ,while he was able to remain free and alive!

[Sam Flynn]

No it is not.

Believe what you like.

[protohistorian]

The Ripper left them where they were, Nats - that's not disposing of them. Why the sudden shift to "discreet disposal" after November 9th, 1888? One might say that the "other" subsequent victims "just went missing" and were never reported, which is why we've never heard of them - but isn't that a stretch too far?

Given the rate at which the Ripper struck, and his apparently "local" mode of operation, we'd have seen at least some indication that something odd was going on in whichever locale Klosowski lived at any given time. The odd "missing person" is one thing, but dozens, or even scores of them over a period of 9 years would surely have caused some suspicions to arise.

No it is not.

[Sam Flynn]

I dont believe for one minute that Chapman stopped cutting and disposing of females methodically.

The Ripper left them where they were, Nats - that's not disposing of them. Why the sudden shift to "discreet disposal" after November 9th, 1888? One might say that the "other" subsequent victims "just went missing" and were never reported, which is why we've never heard of them - but isn't that a stretch too far?

Given the rate at which the Ripper struck, and his apparently "local" mode of operation, we'd have seen at least some indication that something odd was going on in whichever locale Klosowski lived at any given time. The odd "missing person" is one thing, but dozens, or even scores of them over a period of 9 years would surely have caused some suspicions to arise.

[protohistorian]

Not nessisarily. Outside observers have a very restricted view of what "makes sense" to a sociopath. The young Severin likely had socially acceptable, or at the least, not socially restrictive outlets. If Chapman was sociopathic, he would not so much be suffering a singular programing fault such as sadism, rather he would possess several distinct and disfunctional value systems that when acting in concert, produce outrageous behavior. The statistical trend is toward sadism, but that is a matter of probabilities and not a fixed rule. Respectfully Dave

[Malcolm X]

torso murder = hide the victim's identity, it's cold; little or no gratification...because her identity might reveal the killer or make him a strong suspect, these torsos are probably ex- lovers or even ex- wives.... but almost definitely closely related to the killer, that other people knew he was having a relationship with....or simply close friends

these could be the Ripper's lovers, but like Chapman, he cant afford to mutilate them........he can only do this out on the street.

why kill them? he probably lost his temper with them/domestic etc,``I would have cut your head off and buried you over there``... well i dont know if this was Chapman, but it could have been.

now why bother cutting her head off, if he was going to hide her in his house ? because that's a waste of time, he'd still swing on the end of a rope!

he might have meant, but not foolish enough to say..``you'd end up as a torso, dumped on the street, and i would simply tell them, you'd gone back to America``

he also has to create ``torsos`` of his ex-lovers, because ripper style murders would not hide their identity.. this is quite important and i'm surprised that i forgot to mention this...... and like Joe Barnett, the police would definitely interview G.Chapman...........

oh dear oh dear..... he's had it, because unlike Joe; Chapman has a history of violence/ cruelty to women. ...all the relatives would confirm this..

so a murderous Chapman has to create torsos of his lovers ( who dont live with him at his home), but very close ``live in lovers``, that many more people know about in his street, he has to hope to escape detection via poisoning only.... torso murders are way too risky for these women

But thats not what I am arguing Lord-z.
I am saying that he never stopped mutilating women ---he was just never caught.The headless Pinchin Street Torso was just round the corner from his barber shop for which he was the sole proprietor.
This was in September 1889 ten months after the murder of Mary Kelly.The woman had been cut up in several different parts probably indoors, then disposed of.Another woman,Elizabeth Jackson had also been found in bits in a canal in the East End in 1888. She too was headless I believe and her stomach and other organs removed----possibly to avoid them being identified with poisoning.
Poison was just a clever way to get rid of wives who had become a liability when he needed to go out in search of a murder victim he could cut up.

Chapman changed with the wind-----but he remained a murderer.

Hi Natalie,

The mere fact that one Torso was created even before the 1888 killings were being attributed to a single man called Jack indicates that its likely, the Torso killer co-existed, not that he was also Jack. How do you reconcile "Canonical" Liz with that philosophy....sometimes he can steal women away completely and over days or weeks, cut them into pieces....but that time he chooses to only cut a womans throat as he heard a cart and pony approaching for a minute or two prior.

The Torso killer was cunning....but Jack was flashy, and mostly lucky I think.

I think a Torso maker is someone who over a period of time satisfies whatever urges he has to kill or destroy....so would a poisoner get his kicks,....meaning in the philosophy evident, Severins poisoning murders match the prolonged murder gratification that a Torso maker gets.

Jack gets his kicks on the spot, inside 10 minutes time.

Different animals...you need a dramatic event or some catalyst for him to become the prolonged gratification period guy...unless he is the Torso killer too.

Cheers Nats

[Natalie Severn]

As others has said, I really can't see the Ripper toning down his crime. If Kelly was indeed a Ripper victim, he was escalating in violence. Even Eddowes was cut up worse than earlier victims. I think that the Mutilation was the high point of each murder for the Ripper. I just can't see him abandoning that in favour of poison.

But thats not what I am arguing Lord-z.
I am saying that he never stopped mutilating women ---he was just never caught.The headless Pinchin Street Torso was just round the corner from his barber shop for which he was the sole proprietor.
This was in September 1889 ten months after the murder of Mary Kelly.The woman had been cut up in several different parts probably indoors, then disposed of.Another woman,Elizabeth Jackson had also been found in bits in a canal in the East End in 1888. She too was headless I believe and her stomach and other organs removed----possibly to avoid them being identified with poisoning.
Poison was just a clever way to get rid of wives who had become a liability when he needed to go out in search of a murder victim he could cut up.

Chapman changed with the wind-----but he remained a murderer.

[Lord-z]

As others has said, I really can't see the Ripper toning down his crime. If Kelly was indeed a Ripper victim, he was escalating in violence. Even Eddowes was cut up worse than earlier victims. I think that the Mutilation was the high point of each murder for the Ripper. I just can't see him abandoning that in favour of poison.

[Natalie Severn]

Presumably, Nats, he spent his 9 year post-ripping "sabbatical" researching the best way to go about it.

Sam,
Have you ever wondered why Dennis Nielsen got away with murdering 26 young men for a time span of 8-9 years if I remember correctly?
Even the Wests got away with it for years and years.And that guy in the Ukraine got away with over 200 murders in a fairly small town.
I dont believe for one minute that Chapman stopped cutting and disposing of females methodically.Its just that either nobody ever matched such things to him as in the case of Pinchin Street not long after the ripping stopped or ever realised how many women were missing----exactly how the Wests and Nielsen got away with dozens of murders.
Cheers Sam

[Sam Flynn]

I dont believe Chapman was a poisoner by preference. Chapman probably only began to "poison"when he needed a practical and safe way to get rid of wives

Presumably, Nats, he spent his 9 year post-ripping "sabbatical" researching the best way to go about it.

[Natalie Severn]

Chapman was a poisoner only; but i must admit that he looks very suspicious indeed and is a very strong suspect......... but this is coincidence only

I dont believe Chapman was a poisoner by preference. Chapman probably only began to "poison"when he needed a practical and safe way to get rid of wives who were getting in the way of his real needs--- like knifing women"s lower abdominal organs and cutting them to pieces.
There were literally thousands of nameless women who semi vagrantly sold themselves on the streets of London in the 1880"s and 1890"s.
Like Dennis Nielsen's 26+ young male victims and Fred West"s 12+ prostitutes ,he probably lured them home or to his barber shop,killed them and in places like Hastings possibly buried them in the garden ---there is no record of any searches by police of floor boards or garden in Hastings or Cable Street though he probably got rid of a long line of corpses like Nielsen did in waterways ----rivers/canals etc and also from time to time in woodland and railway arches .

[Malcolm X]

George Chapman used to be my favourite suspect, but not any more; the main thing going against him, is no more murders as JACK THE RIPPER; either in America or when he returned here.

the change in M.O to disuise the murders of his lovers/ wives is no problem for me (it makes sense to do so), it's the lack of vicious knife murders at the same time out on the streets, that tells me that he's not our man.

Chapman was a poisoner only; but i must admit that he looks very suspicious indeed and is a very strong suspect......... but this is coincidence only