change in modus operandi

[halomanuk]

Why are we on about Hutchinson in a Chapman thread ?!

[Ben]

Hi BB,

Let's consider that Hutch was not the Ripper and that the reason he came forward late with his evidence was either that he was away for the weekend and news hadn't reached him or that he was a married man seeking out Kelly for her services and he really didnt want this to become public knowledge.

I doubt very much that word of Kelly's murder hadn't reached Hutchinson by the evening of 12th November. Even if he was away for the weekend (which I doubt just as much) it's impossible to accept that he didn't hear of the murder from the newspapers or via word of mouth. The "married man" scenario is a little more plausible, but it doesn't satisfactorily explain why he came forward as soon as it became public knowledge that Sarah Lewis had seen someone loitering near the crime scene (which would have been Hutchinson himself according to his own statement).

Let's consider that he really followed her because he wanted to engage her services for himself once she had finished with her current customer

He wouldn't have had much luck in that regard if he'd spent all his money going down to Romford, as he claimed to have told her. Besdies which there was nothing to prevent him from checking again, periodically, once he'd left the scene, especially if he'd already demonstrated a willingness to wait for so long in miserable conditions in the small hours of the morning. Sarah Lewis never mentioned hearing a peep from room #13 once she'd entered the court at 2:30am, and Mary Cox also observed that there were no lights and no noise from the room when she returned for the last time at 3.00am. Bit odd, if Kelly was suppoed to be ensconsed in there with "Mr. Astrakhan" at that time. Silence and no lights is a pretty reasonable indication that she wasn't entertaining a client at that time.

Of course Severin/JtR could not risk leaving with someone outside...he may even have noticed the man following them and suspect that he had already been seen

But even before that, we'd need to accept that Severin/JTR/Astrakhan cornered himself in a one-exit court in the full and certain knowledge that a potential witness, plain clothes copper, informer, or potential vigilance committee member had clocked him at close quarters and tailed him back to the court.

What if Hutch had become suspicious and gone to Mary's window to find out if she was ok?

In the press versions of Hutchinson's account, he claimed to have ventured into the court and listened for signs of activity outside her window.

The more i think about Hutch the more i think of him as a married man reluctant to come forward and have his association with a prostitute become public knowledge

But he did make it public knowledge. He approached the police, and then gave his story to "a reporter" despite the fact that he was under no obligation to do so. I don't really buy the "struggling with his conscience" suggestion. Too coincidental that his "conscience" was salved the moment in transpired that a man was seen loitering near the crime scene at the same time Hutchinson would later claim he was there.

I dont think it plausible that he would come forward as the Ripper. The Ripper had been so close to capture before...i dont think he would ever bring himself into the notice of anyone

It's not implausible or unlikely. Other serial killers have injected themselves into their own investigations after learning of independant evidence that could potentially incriminate them if they didn't "spike their guns in advance" first. Yes, the killer had been seen before, but there was no evidence that witness descriptions were being suppressed before 19th October. Besides which I've never heard of a serial killer who came forward with bogus "witness" evidence after every murder they're seen at. They do it when they feel like it, and where they perceive a particular advantage or thrill in doing so.

if he had heard the testimony that a man had been seen loitering, he could just have said, oh yes that was me, i followed them back there because the man was unusual looking but i left after five or ten minutes

...Which wouldn't have made much impact if he wished to incriminate the man (real or not) by conveying the impression that the suspicious man was staying the night. The trouble with "I waited for five minutes", is that it allowed for the possibility of someone to arrive after the Astrakhan man - not much good if Astrakhan man was the intended "fall guy". Hutchinson could not have known if he was seen by other witnesses, so he may have wished to account for other potential "Sarah Lewis'" too.

As the Ripper, it would have been grossly remiss for him to wait around like that where there were others coming and going before the murder wouldn't it?

No.

Waiting alone an hour before the murder is far less risky than spending time in company with your victim ten minutes before the discovery of the victim's body, which was ostensibly what the killer did at earlier crime scenes.

Best regards,
Ben

[halomanuk]

Chapman was always a poisoner from start to finish and multitasked at many 'occupations' from surgery to barbers to pub ownership..even his barbers shop that was successful was only because another of his 'wives' played the piano while the patron was shaved,and he soon got rid of that and moved to take the heat away from his poisoning of her.

[Natalie Severn]

thanks Natalie

regards MALCOLM .....not Mike

Sorry Malcolm -----sorry I wasnt paying attention .......

[Malcolm X]

thanks Natalie

regards MALCOLM .....not Mike

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Michael,
Its possible he quit because he had got himself into some kind of mess.I am working on a theory that he may have started to do illegal abortions.That would have landed him in jail if it was discovered.
I am surprised he quit when he did.He had paid for a practical course in surgery at the Warsaw Hospital which lasted three months.This followed a four and a half year apprenticeship to a local surgeon,followed by a part time job as an assistant surgeon while he continued his training.He then took the above course at the Praga and after that, just as he is accepted as a junior surgeon,we hear no more of him in Poland.Its very odd he didnt seek work in a hospital in London-though he may have,and then as now,strict rules applied to doctors and surgeons and an immigrant Polish junior surgeon may not have gone down with the Medical Council.But maybe he never wanted people checking him up by writing for references to Poland?Maybe he had left in rather a hurry?
As it was he had taken great care to keep all the best things that had been said about him by various doctors ---maybe he threw away any stuff that wasnt so glowing about his character?
Levishon himself seems to have been trained as a surgeon in Poland ,just like Chapman ,but likewise only apparently able to get work here as a barber surgeon then afterwards as a traveller in barber shop goods. Dont forget they wouldnt have spoken English at first when they arrived here so possibly a barber shop was a better bet to gain work.
Cheers

Nats

[Malcolm X]

NATALIE

it would be interesting to find out why chapman quit his training as a surgeon, because this is a very prestigeous well paid job...whatever the case, he would've known the human body well, because you have to study very hard, plus he would've been present at many operations.

but a doctor/surgeon tends to murder using poison or drugs, this is his prefered method and like so many surgeons, the human body is like a broken car that needs fixing, they tend not to regard it with morbid fascination like JTR did, it's much more like a normal job to them..... Chapman is therefore far more likely to be similar to Shipman/Cream than a savage mutilator, it's hardly surprising that his chosen career, is the same as a doctors/surgeon chosen method to commit murder.

JTR is an efficient killing machine and secondly a mutilator, this is a huge switch of M.O to become a smooth poisoner, the two do not seem compatible................ downgrading the mutilations to stabbings and then to using a hammer yes.......but not hands on to totally hands off, it simply dosn't feel right.

you'd see Chapman downgrading to stabbings only..... and then taking a break and then returning to stabbings and upgrading to mutilations again....but not in Whitechapel, you would've seen this in the U.S.A...... another 6 murders........... back here, nothing for a year and then the Ripper murders all over again...........but no, while back here he only poisoned.

i can easily counter argue this, but it has to be mentioned

[Malcolm X]

i didn't say there was any evidence...this is the whole point, but he does look like him

[jmenges]

Chapman, for late at night in near total darkness; is a very good match for LA DE DA, but did he possess this expensive clothing at that time, and would he be foolish enough to walk through Whitechapel dressed like this

There is no evidence that Klosowski was La Di Da in 1888.

And, obligatory podcast plug, listen to the Klosowski/Gordon show. Sam Flynn discusses this very point.

JM

[Malcolm X]

in addition, Hutch told a pack of lies..this is fairly obvious and unfortunately this seriously weakens Chapman as a ripper suspect.

but but but........there is a very slight chance that he told the truth, if so; then yes he almost definitely saw G.Chapman...am i contradicting the above post ?..............no, this has to be said, because JTR is a total mess right now

so chapman is better than most suspects here.........much more so, he is positively evil and he just so happened to leave whitechapel after the Ripper murders stopped, only to return as a crafty poisoner, yet again he couldn't stop his killing....he switched M.O completely, yet again; to avoid detection........... isn't he a clever man, as devious as they come, but he made a fatal mistake, becaue this time he killed far too many women that were far too close to him, what a stupid thing to do......... but he is a serial killer and this makes him a very strong suspect, regardless of his switch in M.O .

`` i would've cut your head off and buried you over there``... yes, he loved his knife.... very much so.

there is nothing that links Chapman to the Ripper... no and i wouldn't expect to see anything anyway, this isn't a crazy man like W.Bury, Chapman is far more evil and cunning, miles more intelligent !

[Malcolm X]

i dont think Chapman would've worried about Hutch seeing him and waiting outside...........because Kelly probably wasn't killed till 4am and nobody will ever wait outside that long, somebody is more likely to bang on her door at 3am...and at this stage Chapman is still an innocent customer.

Chapman, for late at night in near total darkness; is a very good match for LA DE DA, but did he possess this expensive clothing at that time, and would he be foolish enough to walk through Whitechapel dressed like this, because you're more likely, due to Chapman's rediculous storytelling ( trying to boost his self-asteem), to see him dressed as a sailor, he loved the sailor's lifestyle......cruising around the Med; or off the Barrier Reef in a 100ft schooner!

so the closest match to ``captain Pugwash`` would therefore be Lawende's sailor, which is also similar to ``old shakespear``, but with a dented Derby hat.....that's why i said, could Chapman have lightened his moustache/hair too ? ......very doubtful..... but still possible.

for me, LA DE DA is dressed too rediculous for Chapman, even for him! because Chapman would've been too smart for this, far too smart; expect him to dress like Joe BARNETT....to melt into a crowd, JTR kills quickly and efficiently, making little noise and trying his best to attract no attention...........LA DE DA DOES ATTRACT ATTENTION. .....sorry, this isn't JTR's M.O

[babybird67]

yes Dave i understand what you are saying...

there's a lot in my post that is conjecture and "what ifs". Perhaps inevitable with so many unknowns.

But...another big what if lol...if the first time he is shown as accepting or buying into normal reality was at his trial when he was convicted and realised he was going to be hung, perhaps IF he was the killer in that room with MJK he had a similar epiphany?

Reality sometimes imposes itself, as in his conviction: complete loss of control over the situation for him, complete imposition of true "reality" over him whether he wanted that or not; instead of being puppeteer, he had become puppet.

IF he was the one in that room with MJK, being watched from outside by Hutch, perhaps this was a similar situation in that had Hutch stayed there until daylight he would almost certainly have been caught...he had done his murder...done his ripping...but was trapped inside...someone else was dictating the reality, to the point where he became so frustrated and angry he wreaked the most awful mutilations ever on Mary?

all pure conjecture on my part lol

bb x

[protohistorian]

these are my thoughts so far...

having considered the Hutch/witness/fabrication thing...in light of Severin possibly being the Ripper...

IF Severin was the ripper, i personally believe the idea that from the first murder (which imo was Tabram) to the "last" (MJK?), pressure was mounting and there was a real fear that if he continued within the same vein he was risking discovery more and more (from being caught "red-handed" - what an awful phrase that is in this context - to leaving behind something which might later be linked to him and incriminate him). This would fit in with Nats' theory that he had an awful fear of the gallows and explain further why his MO changed.

This fear could well have been the motivation for finding a "street whore" that had a room. Not that i think he went out and asked around for this...more that he had either heard of Kelly and knew her circumstances or when he met Kelly he then discovered that she had a room and saw the obvious benefits for committing his crime in comparitive seclusion and without having to negotiate the beats of various policeman coming to and fro and almost discovering him in the act or murder.

There is the theory of "why was he so brutal and so thorough with Kelly"? Was it because he was just getting more and more violent and dissatisfied? This might lend itself to the theory that he could not possibly have gone on to poisoning because the evidence would suggest only more and more violence was satisfying his urges....however i personally think Dave's arguments that the ripping bit could have been incidental and not the prime motivation, and really that trying to comprehend a sociopath and what drives him/her is almost like looking for a needle in a haystack for someone who is NOT a sociopath because of the diverse terms of reference of what constitutes "normal/logical".

Let's consider that Hutch was not the Ripper and that the reason he came forward late with his evidence was either that he was away for the weekend and news hadn't reached him or that he was a married man seeking out Kelly for her services and he really didnt want this to become public knowledge. Let's consider that the person he saw was a little better dressed than usual, but that the embellishments of the details he thought prudent enough to explain why he had followed them back to Miller's Court in the eyes of the "public/wife/family". Let's consider that he really followed her because he wanted to engage her services for himself once she had finished with her current customer. Perhaps noticing she was drunk, he may even have believed that he might get away with using her services without payment, as he admits to having no money. To that end he began to wait...and wait...and a wait he may have anticipated may have been ten-fifteen minutes became gradually longer and longer...

The longer you wait for something you expect to happen imminently, perversely keeps you waiting even longer...because every minute of extra wait you believe makes the event you are waiting for almost inevitable to happen in the next few minutes. When it doesn't you think well if not now, it must only take another few minutes...so you keep waiting almost interminably.

Consider MJK's last client was Severin...first he had to wait for her to stop singing. Then, he killed her and perhaps ripped her lower parts as usual in a JtR ripping. Then it was time to leave. But he notices a man outside hanging around, who will no doubt see him if he leaves now.

Now both men are playing the waiting game, each waiting for the other to make a move. Of course Severin/JtR could not risk leaving with someone outside...he may even have noticed the man following them and suspect that he had already been seen. So, trapped inside the room with MJK's body, what else is there to do but rip further, mutilating more and more of her until she is completely unrecognisable. Hutch outside waits and waits but finally perhaps believes the man is spending the night because there has been silence and no lights for so long and therefore goes away.

Then, Severin can leave, perhaps totally satiated with the extent of the rip time has allowed him to inflict, perhaps considering that his game was becoming way too dangerous. What if Hutch had become suspicious and gone to Mary's window to find out if she was ok? There would be no other escape route for the Ripper...he would have been cornered like a fox...escape impossible...gallows certain. All those things playing on his mind may have persuaded him that ripping in the manner he was doing it was not sustainable; and having spent an inordinately long period of time with MJK ripping, this may have satiated all his desires and yet perversely still left him feeling dissatisfaction and frustration in a manner which he had not expected...to go so far and to still perhaps not have his motivation satisfied may well have contributed to the change in MO.

His superficial charm was getting him plenty of girlfriends/ "wives"...perhaps the part of him that enjoyed violence was being satiated by the domestic abuse his partners mention...until he thought of poisoning to dispose of women who had lost his attention/affection or were becoming troublesome. Murdering as JtR brought so many risks...he had to put himself out there and solicit the victims, risk capture whilst murdering/ripping, risk being seen, etc.

As an underhand poisoner, in his mind thinking he was unassailable, he could still control women, abuse women, murder women, but with apparent impunity...indeed, even with actual PRAISE from their families for the doting husband solicitous only of their care and well-being. To someone with a warped sense of reality, one can only imagine they found this transition from most wanted criminal in London if not England, to Husband of the Year for several years running, highly ironic and possibly a reason for being so self-satisfied and superior. How could anyone but him, he could have thought, carry out both roles so brilliantly?

The more i think about Hutch the more i think of him as a married man reluctant to come forward and have his association with a prostitute become public knowledge, yet faced with the fact that he may be a material witness in such an awful crime, he struggles with his conscience for a few days but then takes the leap into doing the right thing and coming forward.

I dont think it plausible that he would come forward as the Ripper. The Ripper had been so close to capture before...i dont think he would ever bring himself into the notice of anyone...i believe he would always think that unless totally cornered, he would be safe from capture. I also dont think he would have said he had stayed there at Millers Court for three quarters of an hour if it had not been true that he had; if he had heard the testimony that a man had been seen loitering, he could just have said, oh yes that was me, i followed them back there because the man was unusual looking but i left after five or ten minutes. Why would he say he had waited so long if he hadn't? Him waiting that long only increases the likelihood that he was waiting to use Mary sexually or waiting to mug her client when he left. As the Ripper, it would have been grossly remiss for him to wait around like that where there were others coming and going before the murder wouldn't it?

Dave's comments on Severin and how a sociopath ticks make sense to me; i can understand him getting off on having escaped capture being a notorious wanted criminal and the vanity of him enjoying that; i can also feel that he got a completely different, but satisfying, pleasure from being superficially a caring, doting husband and being seen in "public" as such a wonderful person, whilst also duplicitously being a murdering poisoner, AND JtR...i can imagine his intellect being flattered by such a clever career move, where his murders could continue under the very noses of respectable, law abiding people,who respected and admired his behaviour.

I also think Nats idea that Severin could still be perpetrating iiregular rippings of homeless/unfortunate women is possible, however i dont find believing that necessary as from what i have already said, i think Severin could have found poisoning much more satisfying than ripping once he had discovered it as a way of murder.

(phew...now i am tired!)

everything here is my own opinion which is subject to change as i learn more. Would be interested Dave in your opinion of my thoughts, and everyone else. Are there any books published about Severin that it would be good for me to read?

bb x

The biggest problem I see is Severin tayloring his behavior because of an outside stimulus. From what Adam describes it was not until convicted that the reality hit Severin. If Severin was a sociopath his disconnect with reality would preclude anything like fear of reality. He would likely not manifest a fear of being hung, he likely did not percieve that as a viable outcome for him.

[babybird67]

this site is so interesting...

these are my thoughts so far...

having considered the Hutch/witness/fabrication thing...in light of Severin possibly being the Ripper...

IF Severin was the ripper, i personally believe the idea that from the first murder (which imo was Tabram) to the "last" (MJK?), pressure was mounting and there was a real fear that if he continued within the same vein he was risking discovery more and more (from being caught "red-handed" - what an awful phrase that is in this context - to leaving behind something which might later be linked to him and incriminate him). This would fit in with Nats' theory that he had an awful fear of the gallows and explain further why his MO changed.

This fear could well have been the motivation for finding a "street whore" that had a room. Not that i think he went out and asked around for this...more that he had either heard of Kelly and knew her circumstances or when he met Kelly he then discovered that she had a room and saw the obvious benefits for committing his crime in comparitive seclusion and without having to negotiate the beats of various policeman coming to and fro and almost discovering him in the act or murder.

There is the theory of "why was he so brutal and so thorough with Kelly"? Was it because he was just getting more and more violent and dissatisfied? This might lend itself to the theory that he could not possibly have gone on to poisoning because the evidence would suggest only more and more violence was satisfying his urges....however i personally think Dave's arguments that the ripping bit could have been incidental and not the prime motivation, and really that trying to comprehend a sociopath and what drives him/her is almost like looking for a needle in a haystack for someone who is NOT a sociopath because of the diverse terms of reference of what constitutes "normal/logical".

Let's consider that Hutch was not the Ripper and that the reason he came forward late with his evidence was either that he was away for the weekend and news hadn't reached him or that he was a married man seeking out Kelly for her services and he really didnt want this to become public knowledge. Let's consider that the person he saw was a little better dressed than usual, but that the embellishments of the details he thought prudent enough to explain why he had followed them back to Miller's Court in the eyes of the "public/wife/family". Let's consider that he really followed her because he wanted to engage her services for himself once she had finished with her current customer. Perhaps noticing she was drunk, he may even have believed that he might get away with using her services without payment, as he admits to having no money. To that end he began to wait...and wait...and a wait he may have anticipated may have been ten-fifteen minutes became gradually longer and longer...

The longer you wait for something you expect to happen imminently, perversely keeps you waiting even longer...because every minute of extra wait you believe makes the event you are waiting for almost inevitable to happen in the next few minutes. When it doesn't you think well if not now, it must only take another few minutes...so you keep waiting almost interminably.

Consider MJK's last client was Severin...first he had to wait for her to stop singing. Then, he killed her and perhaps ripped her lower parts as usual in a JtR ripping. Then it was time to leave. But he notices a man outside hanging around, who will no doubt see him if he leaves now.

Now both men are playing the waiting game, each waiting for the other to make a move. Of course Severin/JtR could not risk leaving with someone outside...he may even have noticed the man following them and suspect that he had already been seen. So, trapped inside the room with MJK's body, what else is there to do but rip further, mutilating more and more of her until she is completely unrecognisable. Hutch outside waits and waits but finally perhaps believes the man is spending the night because there has been silence and no lights for so long and therefore goes away.

Then, Severin can leave, perhaps totally satiated with the extent of the rip time has allowed him to inflict, perhaps considering that his game was becoming way too dangerous. What if Hutch had become suspicious and gone to Mary's window to find out if she was ok? There would be no other escape route for the Ripper...he would have been cornered like a fox...escape impossible...gallows certain. All those things playing on his mind may have persuaded him that ripping in the manner he was doing it was not sustainable; and having spent an inordinately long period of time with MJK ripping, this may have satiated all his desires and yet perversely still left him feeling dissatisfaction and frustration in a manner which he had not expected...to go so far and to still perhaps not have his motivation satisfied may well have contributed to the change in MO.

His superficial charm was getting him plenty of girlfriends/ "wives"...perhaps the part of him that enjoyed violence was being satiated by the domestic abuse his partners mention...until he thought of poisoning to dispose of women who had lost his attention/affection or were becoming troublesome. Murdering as JtR brought so many risks...he had to put himself out there and solicit the victims, risk capture whilst murdering/ripping, risk being seen, etc.

As an underhand poisoner, in his mind thinking he was unassailable, he could still control women, abuse women, murder women, but with apparent impunity...indeed, even with actual PRAISE from their families for the doting husband solicitous only of their care and well-being. To someone with a warped sense of reality, one can only imagine they found this transition from most wanted criminal in London if not England, to Husband of the Year for several years running, highly ironic and possibly a reason for being so self-satisfied and superior. How could anyone but him, he could have thought, carry out both roles so brilliantly?

The more i think about Hutch the more i think of him as a married man reluctant to come forward and have his association with a prostitute become public knowledge, yet faced with the fact that he may be a material witness in such an awful crime, he struggles with his conscience for a few days but then takes the leap into doing the right thing and coming forward.

I dont think it plausible that he would come forward as the Ripper. The Ripper had been so close to capture before...i dont think he would ever bring himself into the notice of anyone...i believe he would always think that unless totally cornered, he would be safe from capture. I also dont think he would have said he had stayed there at Millers Court for three quarters of an hour if it had not been true that he had; if he had heard the testimony that a man had been seen loitering, he could just have said, oh yes that was me, i followed them back there because the man was unusual looking but i left after five or ten minutes. Why would he say he had waited so long if he hadn't? Him waiting that long only increases the likelihood that he was waiting to use Mary sexually or waiting to mug her client when he left. As the Ripper, it would have been grossly remiss for him to wait around like that where there were others coming and going before the murder wouldn't it?

Dave's comments on Severin and how a sociopath ticks make sense to me; i can understand him getting off on having escaped capture being a notorious wanted criminal and the vanity of him enjoying that; i can also feel that he got a completely different, but satisfying, pleasure from being superficially a caring, doting husband and being seen in "public" as such a wonderful person, whilst also duplicitously being a murdering poisoner, AND JtR...i can imagine his intellect being flattered by such a clever career move, where his murders could continue under the very noses of respectable, law abiding people,who respected and admired his behaviour.

I also think Nats idea that Severin could still be perpetrating iiregular rippings of homeless/unfortunate women is possible, however i dont find believing that necessary as from what i have already said, i think Severin could have found poisoning much more satisfying than ripping once he had discovered it as a way of murder.

(phew...now i am tired!)

everything here is my own opinion which is subject to change as i learn more. Would be interested Dave in your opinion of my thoughts, and everyone else. Are there any books published about Severin that it would be good for me to read?

bb x

[protohistorian]

go for it Honey,

i've just noticed something.....as a barber did Chapman have access to cosmetics, something that he could apply to lighten up his moustache, to conceal his identity....just me thinking out aloud.

there is no doubt that Chapman is a very strong suspect.... especially if you're a Sugden fanboy.

Yes as a barber he would have had both better access and better knowledge.
Respectfully Dave