change in modus operandi

[Monty]

Glenn,

Apologies, I meant anatomical knowledge. You can have anatomical knowledge without being a surgeon or even a butcher true, but skill? a practised ability?

Sequiera was asked if the killer had possed any GREAT anatomical skill. Sequiera didnt state the killer had no anatomical skill whatsoever and as a barber surgeon, Chapman would have had a slightly higher knowledge than a butcher.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

That's the key word, Monty. No greater ANATOMICAL skill. Which is even lower than no great medical skill. You can have anatomical skill without being medically trained. It is not the same thing.
Sequeira was simply asked at the inquest if he found the perpetrator to possess any greater anatomical knowledge and he replied 'no'.
It shall also be noted that Brown talked about mainly anatomical skill - not necessarily medical.

In other words, possibly the same kinds of knowledge or skill that anyone in the butcher would have, and no medical training would in any way be required - as we have seen in other mutilation cases where organs are taken.

All the best

[Monty]

Glenn

Sequeira states, at the Eddowes inquest, that he felt the killer didnt possess "any great anatomical skill". Not that the killer possessed no skill at all. That statement indicates Sequeiras belief that the killer had a limited skill, as Ive stated.

He is dismissed because evidence is built against him, not solely because he was a poisoner and poisoners dont do knives.

Monty

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

... but he is too oft dismissed out of hand in my most humble and irrelevant opinion.

And that is probably because there is no logical or sensible reason to ever include or consider him in the first place.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Glenn,

So the fact that Brown and Sequeira for example, state medical knowledge, albeit limited, is irrelevant to barber-surgeon Chapman?

Monty,

Sequeira, as I recall, didn't credit the Ripper with any medical knowledge at all - in fact, I think he considered the Ripper to be a complete amateur, based on the observations in connection with Eddowes' murder. Sequeira's conclusion was most certainly that the ripper had NO medical knowledge and showed no skill whatsoever.

Brown based the part about medical knowledge on the removal of the kidney - which is fair enough - but also made the mistake to assume that the fact that the killer knew about its position would indicate medical knowledge, which is quite incorrect since any slaughterer (especially of pigs) would be well aware of the position of all vital internal organs.

Again - the question of the Ripper's medical knowledge (and also in connection with Klosowski) has to be irrelevant, since there exists numerous cases where people have done similar things as the Ripper without having no medical training or experience whatsoever.

All the best

[Monty]

Glenn,

So the fact that Brown and Sequeira for example, state medical knowledge, albeit limited, is irrelevant to barber-surgeon Chapman?

I cant see that myself. Doesnt make him Jack, not by a long way. Also doesnt make the two Doctors correct but he is too oft dismissed out of hand in my most humble and irrelevant opinion.

cheers
Monty

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hey Guys,

Id like to bring a point up about Abberline and Klosowiski (Chapman).

There is no supporting evidence towards the "youve caught him at last" quote. Lack of verification makes this quote suspect.

Also, in the PMG article, Abberline states his opinion that a killer of Chapmans type could have been a killer of Jacks type, NOT that he was Jack.

I personally blame HL Adams.

Monty

In my judgement you are absolute correct on all counts here, Monty. Agreed.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hey Glenn,

I agree with much of what you said but cant help question the alledged barber surgeon aspect of Chapman.

There we have medical knowledge and he knew how to use a knife. Maybe this is why Chapman stands apart from the others with extremely alternate MO.

Cheers
Monty

Hey Monty,

Not really, because the whole point about medical knowledge in connection with the ripper is without foundation and has no bearing at all. There were most likely no real signs of any skills with a knife or anatomical knowledge beyond what was required by a butcher - and as we know, there were many of them in the East End. The point about 'medical/surgical' knowledge is just as irrelevant as everything else regarding Klosowski.

All the best

[Pilgrim]

"All Agree, Too, That He Was A Foreign-looking Man."

Hi Monty, I remember you were posting about Abberline a few weeks ago. Thanks for the reminder.

~~~

Pall Mall Gazette, 24 March 1903

"It is a remarkable thing," Mr. Abberline pointed out, "that after the Whitechapel horrors America should have been the place where a similar kind of murder began, as though the miscreant had not fully supplied the demand of the American agent.

"There are many other things extremely remarkable. The fact that Klosowski when he came to reside in this country occupied a lodging in George Yard, Whitechapel Road, where the first murder was committed, is very curious, and the height of the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him. All agree, too, that he was a foreign-looking man,--but that, of course, helped us little in a district so full of foreigners as Whitechapel. One discrepancy only have I noted, and this is that the people who alleged that they saw Jack the Ripper at one time or another, state that he was a man about thirty- five or forty years of age. They, however, state that they only saw his back, and it is easy to misjudge age from a back view."

~~~

Pall Mall Gazette, 31 March 1903

"As to the question of the dissimilarity of character in the crimes which one hears so much about," continued the expert, "I cannot see why one man should not have done both, provided he had the professional knowledge, and this is admitted in Chapman's case. A man who could watch his wives being slowly tortured to death by poison, as he did, was capable of anything; and the fact that he should have attempted, in such a cold-blooded manner to murder his first wife with a knife in New Jersey, makes one more inclined to believe in the theory that he was mixed up in the two series of crimes. What, indeed, is more likely than that a man to some extent skilled in medicine and surgery should discontinue the use of a knife when his commission--and I still believe Chapman had a commission from America--came to an end, and then for the remainder of his ghastly deeds put into practice his knowledge of poisons? Indeed, if the theory be accepted that a man who takes life on a whole-sale scale never ceases his accursed habit until he is either arrested or dies, there is much to be said for Chapman's consistency. You see, incentive changes; but the fiendishness is not eradicated. The victims, too, you will notice, continue to be women ; but they are of different classes, and obviously call for different methods of despatch."

~~~

It does not seem that Abberline expressed a definite view on Chapman, as being the Ripper. And to the extent that he may have believed that Chapman could have been the Ripper it might seem, from his last statement on the 31st, that this view had to some extent been mistakenly conditioned by the belief that Chapman had made a "cold-blooded" attempt to murder his wife in Jersey.

And Abberline also made that other conditional statement - the one about the theory that "a man who takes life on a whole-sale scale never ceases his accursed habit". It's my general impression that his statements on the 31st were somewhat more cautious than his initial comments a week earlier.

My Regards.

[Monty]

Hey Glenn,

I agree with much of what you said but cant help question the alledged barber surgeon aspect of Chapman.

There we have medical knowledge and he knew how to use a knife. Maybe this is why Chapman stands apart from the others with extremely alternate MO.

Cheers
Monty

[Monty]

Hey Guys,

Id like to bring a point up about Abberline and Klosowiski (Chapman).

There is no supporting evidence towards the "youve caught him at last" quote. Lack of verification makes this quote suspect.

Also, in the PMG article, Abberline states his opinion that a killer of Chapmans type could have been a killer of Jacks type, NOT that he was Jack.

I personally blame HL Adams.

Monty

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I wonder why we continue have these arguments about Chapman and not, say, Bury or Deeming.

Because Deeming can be ruled out for a number of other reasons, and as far as Bury is concerned, he only killed once and in a style that was quite Ripper-like (in contrast to people like Klosowski).

And no, Klosowski isn't a possible Ripper suspect.

All the best

Hi all...Nickie,

As others have pointed out, there is no suit that serial killers all fit into, but in the scenario you are suggesting with the thread, the change from instant gratification with a dead woman, to the sadist and prolonged torture of a live person, coupled with the apparent motive being money in the latter cases,...for myself, there is no question...MR K was not also J the R

It was years after the Ripper cases were cold, and during Chapmans trial when Abberline made his remarks, and all that demonstrates really is his lingering frustration at having left those cases unsolved,...the very neighbourhood that helped him build his reputation as competent and dedicated, that enabled his promotion downtown....he was called "back home" to catch a killer...and he failed them.

I think that might also explain George Hutchinson and Fred Abberline a bit.

My very best.

[sdreid]

Hi all,

No two serial killers are exactly alike. They are not robots or worker bees. Some kill the same way each time and some kill different ways. Some kill only a certain type of victim, others change victim types and still others murder indiscriminately. Some kill with large separations in time while others keep a more or less steady pace. Chapman can not be eliminated as a possible suspect. I wonder why we continue have these arguments about Chapman and not, say, Bury or Deeming.

[mariag]

Exactly, Glenn. That " Ah you've got Jack the Ripper at last" comment comes more from professional exhaustion and frustration than anything else, I think.

Just because a man is a serial killer of some women doesn't mean he's the serial killer of all women.