thought experiment

[Malcolm X]

...in a part of London so densely populated with Yiddish and Polish-speaking immigrants that becoming fluent in English would hardly have been necessary - nor indeed probable, after barely having lived one year in the country, and having lived and worked with other immigrants during that time.

yes at this earlier time i dont mean fluent, i mean well enough to talk to an English customer or to chat up a woman/ prostitute... expect him to be fluent after about 10 months.... our migrant hotel workers can speak good enough English after about 3 months... they have to, because they have to serve our posh guests in the restaurant.
Chapman would've been able to speak good enough English in about this same 3 months.

The man that killed the Unfortunates to disembowel them and sometimes take warm organs only had to portray himself as a client for 2-10 minutes. -Mike R

Mike, I know that you aren't promoting any specific theory or agenda, but in all honesty, there's no definite proof, nor will there be any anytime soon, that Nichols,Eddowes, or Stride were soliciting or on the recieving end of a solicitiation which culminated in their death.

It also seems murderers who use a knife have a different mindset than ones who use poison. Even a murderer who dispatches his victims with a gun appears to differ from knife wielders. The knife user is a hands on,get down and dirty,grittier type than a gun totin' character.

Which is reason #Umpteen to dismiss Chapman ( for me) and for the fegelah Tumbelty.

All the best

How

Hi Howard,

Nice to speak with you. On your first point, in my opinion mind you its pretty clear Polly likely was doing so, that Annie was almost certainly doing so, that Liz and Kate are assumed by many to have been doing so...and that there is no evidence Mary Jane was. But we do have evidence in the 2 deaths Im almost 100% convinced were linked by one man...Polly and Annie, that they sought clients. My personal opinion is that Polly and Annie were soliciting, as was Martha Tabram. I dont believe Liz was, nor that thats why Kate turned left out of Bishopsgate, nor do I think the evidence suggests that in the case of Mary Kelly.

On your second point I highlighted, couldnt agree more...although I do think the knife often is used to prevent or avoid much direct actual contact with the victim as well, when used to stab...a sort of tool. A man that likes holding warm if not hot internal organs along with the knife cutting usage is certainly an intimate killer...and one that is not satisfied with merely causing death.

All the best Howard.

[Sam Flynn]

exactly, well said; he would've definitely have spoken English....especially to run his own barber shop

...in a part of London so densely populated with Yiddish and Polish-speaking immigrants that becoming fluent in English would hardly have been necessary - nor indeed probable, after barely having lived one year in the country, and having lived and worked with other immigrants during that time.

[Howard Brown]

The man that killed the Unfortunates to disembowel them and sometimes take warm organs only had to portray himself as a client for 2-10 minutes. -Mike R

Mike, I know that you aren't promoting any specific theory or agenda, but in all honesty, there's no definite proof, nor will there be any anytime soon, that Nichols,Eddowes, or Stride were soliciting or on the recieving end of a solicitiation which culminated in their death.

It also seems murderers who use a knife have a different mindset than ones who use poison. Even a murderer who dispatches his victims with a gun appears to differ from knife wielders. The knife user is a hands on,get down and dirty,grittier type than a gun totin' character.

Which is reason #Umpteen to dismiss Chapman ( for me) and for the fegelah Tumbelty.

All the best

How

[Malcolm X]

Ben,
Severin Klosowski had acquired his own barber shop in Cable Street ,Whitechapel, by the latter part of 1887-.He had none of his own folk to help him with that business acquisition so its more than likely that by this time he had acquired sufficient basic interpersonal communication skills in the English language to engage in such a transaction competently.
Moreover,if he arrived in England in June 1887,the date usually given for his arrival here,there is every reason to believe he would have acquired a good level of basic English by June 1888 as this would concur with the average rate of linguistic development for bilingual learners.
Argue with the above statistical information all you like, but it is firmly based on scientific research into the average rates of L2 acquisition for developing bilinguals.There is absolutely no reason to suspect Severin had learning difficulties of any kind other than those connected with his emotional development.

exactly, well said; he would've definitely have spoken English....especially to run his own barber shop...he wasn't thick/illiterate, because as a trainee surgeon he was described as hard working/ a good pupil.

as we all know, he was a bullshitter...``i've done this, i've done that etc etc``...so expect him to be articulate and quick whitted....

it was said that he could ``mesmerize women``, physically repulsive and an evil face yes, but a real charmer in the company of a woman...he had the gift of the gab... so expect him to speak English fairly well

Hi all,

I did notice our synchronizing Sam,...it is nice to agree.

The man they called The Ripper seemed to place the actual death stroke as a lower priority to post mortem activities....and dealt the death blow before they could be watched "suffering" from stomach slashes. There seems to be almost a lack of interest in what many serial killers express is their ultimate moment...watching life leave someone.

Poisoning over months, with the daily acting that would be required using this method of killing...pretending to be concerned, saddened, ...saying "oh you poor dear" over and over again to someone he is intent on having dead ultimately anyway...these seem like dissimilar characters.

The man that killed the Unfortunates to disembowel them and sometimes take warm organs only had to portray himself as a client for 2-10 minutes.

There is a slow patience required to watch someone die from their bedside, there is little shown by a killer who accomplishes all that is done to Kate in perhaps 5-6 minutes.

There is no indication that Jack the Ripper committed his crimes for economic gain...in fact the victims demographic absolutely addresses that issue.

There is real evidence that Severin had great economic gain by committing his slow torturous murders.

The only way to merge these men is by way of a dramatic change in persona and/or character occurring between the slashing and poisoning acts.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

If he arrived here in June 1887,as is believed to have been the case

There is no evidence that he did, Nats - until there is, I wouldn't believe it if I were you. If "Deposits £100 when from America I had £1000" (post 1893) is anything to go by, I wouldn't kid myself that he'd acquired any great fluency by 1888 either. How would he, if he'd spent the first 5 months of his tenure in England living with, and working for, Polish immigrants, before going to St George's East (hardly an exclusively Anglophone area - again, see the Lipski case) sometime in the latter half of 1888?

It's worth noting that Abraham Radin himself ended up living in Goulston Street by 1891 - and we know all about Goulston St. This alone is a good indicator of the tight circles in which immigrants typically moved.

[protohistorian]

not if the killers goal was watvhing the suffering. I think I met that guy Menglefarb! Respectfully Dave

[Howard Brown]

sweet howard, I am moving close to you for other reasons. Your survivability is good. Definately not to hurt you. Respectfully Dave P.s. what if?

Move it on over with yo' bad self,Dave . Coincidentally, I have a friend from Kansas who is a Ripperologist...a Mengleberg or Menglefarb or something like that... you know...the podcast dude.

Seriously...its harder to contemplate or concieve the idea of someone who employed quick,violent,and hands-on bloody work....and then ! A couple of years later savoring the time it took his wives to slooooooooowly and eventually die.

Just me two cents.

[Natalie Severn]

A typo Sam.

Thats possible but as I have stated a number of times,Klosowski"s bilingual development was almost certain to have been in line with that of the average bilingual learner.If he arrived here in June 1887,as is believed to have been the case,he would have begun to develop conversational fluency by June 1888 though irregularities of phrasing and sentence structuring would be present in his speech
Best
Nats.

[Sam Flynn]

Ben,
Severin Klosowski had acquired his own barber shop in Cable Street ,Whitechapel, by the latter part of 1887

1888, Nats. A typo, I'm sure

He had none of his own folk to help him with that business acquisition so its more than likely that by this time he had acquired sufficient basic interpersonal communication skills in the English language to engage in such a transaction competently.

More likely, Abraham Radin - quite possibly the "Mr 'Addin" who owned a barbershop in Tottenham at which Klosowski later worked - did all the necessary for him, or one of Radin's contacts did. I've suggested that Radin might have offered an "employment agency" sort of function for incoming barbers from the Homeland, and it's not beyond the bounds.

The Jewish/Eastern European "Old Boys' Network" seems to have served the immigrant community quite well at that time - look no further than the Lipski case for confirmation. They looked after their own, and often mingled solely with their own, and who would blame them for doing so?


Edit: Mike (Perrymason), our posts crossed. Nice to see we agree on this

It is not a matter of could, rather of would. Would Severin blithely except altering his behavior over assimilating. Considering he never did so, I rather expect not. Respectfully Dave

Seems to me you have a probable "slasher-to-poisoner" rationale there as well.

All the best Dave.

[protohistorian]

It is not a matter of could, rather of would. Would Severin blithely except altering his behavior over assimilating. Considering he never did so, I rather expect not. Respectfully Dave

From what I can gather about Londons East End at the time, it was essentially multi-lingual..there are not well defined enclaves of foreign language residents...like today in Toronto, where you can know the nationality of the immediate local poplulation by the language on the street signs, restaurants and businesses...the clothing worn, or the temples within. Its why in Toronto...as I would imagine many places, an immigrant could conceivably arrive and be sheltered by the English speaking members of his community, or shop in their own language in those neighbourhoods, and never have to learn English themselves.

Hungarian Jews, Russian Jews, Poles, French, people of the Phillipines, East Indians, Swedish folks and more were in East London...almost all of which would have been used to learning languages not their native tongue for trading and buying and selling among neigboring countries back home. Europe and Scandinavia commonly has residents that speak 3 or 4 languauges fluently today.

London was like an International Business hub...and it was a uni-lingual country. If you cant speak any English...you better have someone that can take care of you that does. Did Severin?

Best regards all.

[protohistorian]

heres an idea to help you, if the 20 or 30 seconds of terror in the face of the victims was a goal, how much better is month's of terror?