thought experiment

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

If he himself was an immigrant Polish speaker,he would simply bave been in no position to judge the English speaking and listening of Severin.

That would only be true if he didn't know what English sounded like, which clearly wasn't the case since he was able to differentiate a Klosowski who spoke Polish and a bit of Yiddish in 1889 from a Klosowski who could speak English by 1895. If, as Gareth mentioned, his written English was poor even around the latter time frame, then his spoken English six years earlier when he had just arrived in England must have been virtually non-existent, tallying nicely with Levisshon's observations.

All the best,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

but many poisoners who have been apprehended simply poisoned one too many a victim and their intelligence level or their selection of victims would never have been factored in since they would never have been apprehended....if they had only stopped with the penultimate victim.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, though, How. Isn't it true in Chapman's case that his downfall didn't come about through his own stupidity, nor even (in an odd sense) because of what he did - more that it came about through what his "in-laws" did? Had Mr and Mrs Marsh not taken the initiative to get Dr Grapel to check out Maud's condition, Klosowski might well have gone on to kill more and more women.

Now, neither his intelligence nor his behaviour can have altered much since the deaths of Mary Spink and Bessie Taylor - on the contrary, we have the same person involved in all three deaths. Therefore - apropos my "stewed rabbit" metaphor (sorry, Caz!) - it's simply a case of his having been "caught", rather than any intrinsic difference in his psychological makeup at the time of his third murder.

[Howard Brown]

A little while back,JMenges made the comment:

"Chapman has been characterized as a man who callously rid himself of the women whom he tired of. Once the female in his life bored him, snap of the fingers and they could be gone."

JM didn't pick that out of the air since its also been parroted on other threads relative to Chapman. There's really no way of determining whether Chapman was EVER fond of or enamored with his subsequent victims...and a theory that the murders were already planned in advance before wedlock is just as likely as the concept he "got tired of them" and then killed them. Its quite possible Chapman looked into the future for his victims and chose the approximate time he would begin to poison them slowly to death. Even if Chapman stated in court or to a confidant that he had once been fond of any of the women...serial killers are all liars,period.

What could this mean in terms of how we look at Chapman? Very simply that the other notion of him having a self-perception of himself being a failure might need a reevaluation or at least, consideration. Anyone committed to a time schedule which allows for a "cooling off" period to avoid as much suspicion as possible as Chapman being the husband surely would have attracted... or premeditated plan of attack as Chapman may have put into action....seems likely to have an over inflated perception of himself and may have had a sense of being "superior" within himself.

Glenn Andersson mentioned:

In all honesty, Klosowski was an idiot for killing victims that could be personally linked to him and for choosing the same modus operandi each time but he was a calculating poisoner where the crimes involved a certain amount of planning, self-control and manipulation.

True, he was the prime suspect to us and probably to the majority of those who investigated the women's deaths....but many poisoners who have been apprehended simply poisoned one too many a victim and their intelligence level or their selection of victims would never have been factored in since they would never have been apprehended....if they had only stopped with the penultimate victim.

Would he have been labeled an idiot had he stopped with two wives? Would he have been arrested, tried and convicted ?

I agree,for what its worth,with the underlined sentence of Glenn's observation. I think he had envisioned his wives as "dead ducks" the minute he first met them and made his first move on them.

My man CD thinks like I do. You don't need no steenkin' English to made a move on a prostitute at midnight in areas where prostitutes habituate. Point to the crotch...show some coin...and you're in....like Sam Flynn.

[Sam Flynn]

There is every reason to believe Severin was of average,if not above average intelligence.

His written English was still rather poor even after he came back from the States, Nats - at least there's little evidence that he'd grasped English syntax if two handwritten notes of his are anything to go by.

These read: "came from America in 1893 independent", and "deposits £100 when from America I had £1000". Whenever these were written - definitely post 1893, quite possibly a bit later - they clearly show a man who hadn't quite mastered his adopted tongue.

[Sam Flynn]

Well thanks for not even addressing my point and just repeating your own argument.

Just for clarification, Caz.

Can you not even bring yourself to acknowledge that the serial killers who make the most or biggest mistakes are also the most likely to get caught eventually

"Likely" doesn't mean that they are invariably caught - and neither does making mistakes. I've yet to meet anyone (serial offender or otherwise) who does not make them.

Anyway, it's not just about making mistakes - it's about general behaviour in all circumstances. No reason to suppose that, just because he was caught, the rabbit in my stewpot wasn't copulating yesterday, eating veg or having a crap in a field. It's how the overwhelming majority of them behave.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,



But Levisshon offered no such caveat when he gave his rather crucial evidence on oath at the trial. If there was any time to specifiy that "while SK could speak English, he didn't personally to me" it was certainly the trial. Instead, her clearly differntiates between the language spoken by SK the 1880s and the languagae spoken by him in 1895. By the latter date, he had clearly divested himself of his almost exclusively foreign friends and clientele, and "now" spoke English.

He might have known the odd word of two in the early days, but I see no eivdence that he could properly converse in English at that time, and indications aplenty that he couldn't.

Best regards,
Ben

Ben,
We dont know either the level of Wolff Levishon"s speaking and listening skills in 1888/89.If he himself was an immigrant Polish speaker,he would simply bave been in no position to judge the English speaking and listening of Severin.It requires between five and seven years of living in England and being educated in English in an English speaking environment to acquire CALP-ie cognitive/academic language proficiency.
As it stands its highly likely that both Wolff and Severin acquired English BICS within the twelve months that those of average ability usually acquire it.As a rule passive[listening] skills are far ahead of speaking skills,but after about twelve months,most people of normal intelligence,living and working in an environment such as a barber"s shop,will be able to converse using basic vocabulary and sentence structuring.There is every reason to believe Severin was of average,if not above average intelligence.
Best
Norma

[c.d.]

Well I am a firm believer in capitalism (well maybe not as much as I did before). If Chapman were the Ripper, you had a buyer (Chapman) and a seller (prostitutes) both eager to consummate (pun intended) the deal. The whole affair could have been done by gestures. No English required. As far as witnesses saying that they heard the Ripper conversing in English we can't be certain they were in fact observing Jack.

c.d.

[protohistorian]

ok then, was a nice discourse

[Ben]

Oh, I don't know, Dave,

I'm pretty sure he could have catered to all his dietry and clothing needs by visiting the many shops owned by foreigners. I doubt he'd have been limiting himself at all.

Best wishes,
Ben

[protohistorian]

There is no doubt you could limit your interactions to poles. What is questioned is did he limit himself in such a manner. His personality does not seem to lend itself to extraordinary effort. There is also the matter of those situations where Polish was not an option. Everyday activities like buying food or drink would either require slavish adherents to certain places or people or some fluidity of action. Respectfully Dave

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

Bear in mind,speaking in English with a fellow Pole such as Wolff would have been an absolute no no ---highly pretentious for a start and false ----Wolff would therefore,as a fellow speaker of Polish,have conversed with Severin almost exclusively in their native lingua----Polish and sometimes Yiddish.

But Levisshon offered no such caveat when he gave his rather crucial evidence on oath at the trial. If there was any time to specifiy that "while SK could speak English, he didn't personally to me" it was certainly the trial. Instead, her clearly differntiates between the language spoken by SK the 1880s and the languagae spoken by him in 1895. By the latter date, he had clearly divested himself of his almost exclusively foreign friends and clientele, and "now" spoke English.

He might have known the odd word of two in the early days, but I see no eivdence that he could properly converse in English at that time, and indications aplenty that he couldn't.

Best regards,
Ben

[Ben]

From the time he moved to England, he was aquiring English in such a degree as he could.

The strong indications that he stuck with other immigrants in both his social and professional life may have interfered with any English-learning efforts he may have engaged in. Such was the representation of Poles in the district, that he could cheerfully have got by for a long time without having any need for communication with the English. I find it interesting that he was recorded as speaking English after he had lived in areas where the wasn't such a strong representation of his native folk.

Regards,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Yes, but it's perhaps unreasonable to surmise that the basis of their entire communication was business-talk. They were bound to have conversed on a more "human" level at some point, and yet Levisshon stated that he spoke Polish and Yiddish, no mention of English - probably because he didn't speak any at that early stage. Certainly, if he was almost exclusively in the company of fellow immigrants, there was no immediate reason to learn English. The fact that it was mentioned that he could speak English by 1895 would make the most sense if he couldn't before, in my view.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,
It seems to me he could hardly have run a business or been engaged in the work of a barber,without picking up English.
This particular job would be considered by linguists to have been the most perfect environment for developing BICS [basic interpersonal communication skills,taking on average between 6 months and 18 months to acquire conversational fluency].He would have had both aural access from customers and opportunity through the work itself to practise basic speech such as repetitive sentence structuring and patterning ,on a daily basis acquiring vocabulary by listening to the conversations going on all around him.Moreover a barber would not, I believe ,have been readily employed in a busy community like the East End was in 1888, where numbers of customers would have needed to use some English to discuss their needs.
Bear in mind,speaking in English with a fellow Pole such as Wolff would have been an absolute no no ---highly pretentious for a start and false ----Wolff would therefore,as a fellow speaker of Polish,have conversed with Severin almost exclusively in their native lingua----Polish and sometimes Yiddish.Wolff was a travelling salesman who called in at the shop in the basement of the Whitehart,Georges Yard, from time to time.
Best
Norma

[protohistorian]

It may not be a matter of couldn't but rather didn't. Once a dialogue has been established, the language rarely changes. Even with the large percentage of immigrants and the widespread use of Polish and Yiddish, a certain percentage of social interaction would be in English. We only know that in the context viewed by Wolf, Yiddish and Polish predominated. By the time of purchasing the poison, the chemist describes Severin as an intellectual. It is unlikely he postponed learning the language, rather he followed a learning curve. From the time he moved to England, he was aquiring English in such a degree as he could. We have no outside reference to how good that might have been. Respectfully Dave

[Ben]

We know that the primary reason for lingua francas is economics. We have Wolf engaged in just this enterprise with Severin.

Yes, but it's perhaps unreasonable to surmise that the basis of their entire communication was business-talk. They were bound to have conversed on a more "human" level at some point, and yet Levisshon stated that he spoke Polish and Yiddish, no mention of English - probably because he didn't speak any at that early stage. Certainly, if he was almost exclusively in the company of fellow immigrants, there was no immediate reason to learn English. The fact that it was mentioned that he could speak English by 1895 would make the most sense if he couldn't before, in my view.

Best regards,
Ben