thought experiment

[protohistorian]

if both methods are acceptable, they are equiprobable to the killer. Respectfully Dave

[protohistorian]

sweet howard, I am moving close to you for other reasons. Your survivability is good. Definately not to hurt you. Respectfully Dave P.s. what if?

[perrymason]

if both methods are acceptable, they are equiprobable to the killer. Respectfully Dave

Acceptable to what standards Dave? Is holding organs that are removed from a woman just after her death something in which he might find equal satisfaction to watching someone die slowly over months? Is immediacy an issue with Jack? Is blood an issue? Is the knife a metaphor...or an aid?

Im not sure that I can personally imagine a scenario that has a ruthless bloody killer sitting watching his future victims die bloodlessly over months in his later life. I can see a killer being unsatisfied by poisoning more easily.

Plus.....by far the largest factor with Chapman....his poisoning deaths were for financial gain.

Cheers Dave.

[protohistorian]

thats not like assuming physical violece is it?

[perrymason]

thats not like assuming physical violece is it?

Im not sure how you mean that, but if you mean could the violence of the earlier murderer iteration be something that makes his being satisfied by poisoning later in life impossible...I would submit....sure its possible.

When we know why he killed in 1888, then we can understand how Chapman might fit into the scheme....but the main objection still should be on motives......we know Chapman murdered for money....so his objective for murder is a "societal" treasure...perhaps not an outsiders.

Does this Ripper fellow seek things that will enhance his standings in the community... or his pocketbook? He may have taken 6d from Liz....and maybe even the coins Maria gave Mary...he left Annies...I dont see the same types of goals at all.

Cheers Dave

[Ben]

Hi CD,

Were these ladies that had to be wooed by sonnets and rhyming couplets or was it simply a matter of holding out some money?

No, but it could be argued, rather persuasively I think, that a man with a conspicuously foreign appearance and a limited to non-existent grasp of the English language might well have deterred even the most needy prostitute at a time when the popular scapegoat was Johnny Foreigner. It's also bearing in mind that several witness sightings observed men in obvious mutual communication with the victims, as opposed to a "Meee....yooo....sex...no?" type set-up.

Hi Norma - I've already addressed your point. Levisshon knew Klosowski, which is more than can be said of any of us. Ergo, he was in a better position than any of us to assess his English-speaking ability in 1889. We learn from Levisshon than SK spoke Polish and some Yiddish at that time, and he added no caveat that he spoke that language "to him" (which is crucial, considering the nature of the trial). By 1895, SK was speaking to English, again according to Levisshon.

As far as I'm concerned, it would take an awful lot of speculative jiggery-pokery to escape the most logical, commonsense deduction; that it was observed that SK was speaking English in 1895 because he couldn't in 1889.

[Natalie Severn]

Ben,
Severin Klosowski had acquired his own barber shop in Cable Street ,Whitechapel, by the latter part of 1887-.He had none of his own folk to help him with that business acquisition so its more than likely that by this time he had acquired sufficient basic interpersonal communication skills in the English language to engage in such a transaction competently.
Moreover,if he arrived in England in June 1887,the date usually given for his arrival here,there is every reason to believe he would have acquired a good level of basic English by June 1888 as this would concur with the average rate of linguistic development for bilingual learners.
Argue with the above statistical information all you like, but it is firmly based on scientific research into the average rates of L2 acquisition for developing bilinguals.There is absolutely no reason to suspect Severin had learning difficulties of any kind other than those connected with his emotional development.

[protohistorian]

Well thats rather like assuming your motive for checking the mail is equal to your motive for taking out the trash. We have no way of asserting with confidence what a ripper motive is. We assume that similar behavior's have like motives. I am at least willing to say this is not a known quantity. Assuming physical violence as any feature is ridiculous. It is a demonstrative feature. We cannot assume core level attachments to the use of physical violence. Given that fantasy driven serials display no loyalty to method, I believe it is treacherous to do so historically. Respectfully Dave

[protohistorian]

yes it could be. Satisfaction driven behavior is notoriously diverse. Outside observers can make no sense of it because the logical string in which it does make sense is a function internal to the killer. Respectfully Dave

[protohistorian]

heres an idea to help you, if the 20 or 30 seconds of terror in the face of the victims was a goal, how much better is month's of terror?

[perrymason]

From what I can gather about Londons East End at the time, it was essentially multi-lingual..there are not well defined enclaves of foreign language residents...like today in Toronto, where you can know the nationality of the immediate local poplulation by the language on the street signs, restaurants and businesses...the clothing worn, or the temples within. Its why in Toronto...as I would imagine many places, an immigrant could conceivably arrive and be sheltered by the English speaking members of his community, or shop in their own language in those neighbourhoods, and never have to learn English themselves.

Hungarian Jews, Russian Jews, Poles, French, people of the Phillipines, East Indians, Swedish folks and more were in East London...almost all of which would have been used to learning languages not their native tongue for trading and buying and selling among neigboring countries back home. Europe and Scandinavia commonly has residents that speak 3 or 4 languauges fluently today.

London was like an International Business hub...and it was a uni-lingual country. If you cant speak any English...you better have someone that can take care of you that does. Did Severin?

Best regards all.

[protohistorian]

It is not a matter of could, rather of would. Would Severin blithely except altering his behavior over assimilating. Considering he never did so, I rather expect not. Respectfully Dave

[perrymason]

It is not a matter of could, rather of would. Would Severin blithely except altering his behavior over assimilating. Considering he never did so, I rather expect not. Respectfully Dave

Seems to me you have a probable "slasher-to-poisoner" rationale there as well.

All the best Dave.

[Sam Flynn]

Ben,
Severin Klosowski had acquired his own barber shop in Cable Street ,Whitechapel, by the latter part of 1887

1888, Nats. A typo, I'm sure

He had none of his own folk to help him with that business acquisition so its more than likely that by this time he had acquired sufficient basic interpersonal communication skills in the English language to engage in such a transaction competently.

More likely, Abraham Radin - quite possibly the "Mr 'Addin" who owned a barbershop in Tottenham at which Klosowski later worked - did all the necessary for him, or one of Radin's contacts did. I've suggested that Radin might have offered an "employment agency" sort of function for incoming barbers from the Homeland, and it's not beyond the bounds.

The Jewish/Eastern European "Old Boys' Network" seems to have served the immigrant community quite well at that time - look no further than the Lipski case for confirmation. They looked after their own, and often mingled solely with their own, and who would blame them for doing so?


Edit: Mike (Perrymason), our posts crossed. Nice to see we agree on this

[Natalie Severn]

A typo Sam.

Thats possible but as I have stated a number of times,Klosowski"s bilingual development was almost certain to have been in line with that of the average bilingual learner.If he arrived here in June 1887,as is believed to have been the case,he would have begun to develop conversational fluency by June 1888 though irregularities of phrasing and sentence structuring would be present in his speech
Best
Nats.