thought experiment

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Michael,
Lets stick to facts shall we.
Klosowski "married" several times and a few of those he was bogusly married to lived to tell the tale.For example Lucy Baderski [1890] and Annie Chapman -1893-1894.
He then lived with Mary Spink---and we have recorded some very interesting linguistic expertise in English by Klosowski at this point in 1895 as he craftily organised another bogus wedding with her following being dumped by Annie Chapman [not our Annie].
Mary Spink did have some money of her own and together they worked in another barber"s shop ,Chapman,as he now called himself,bought with her money.
But please note,he murdered Mary Spink in 1897 and moved on then to Bessie Taylor,a barmaid from whom he inherited nothing and who he had employed to work in his pub.After three years of episodic wife beating[as with Mary Spink] he drew a revolver on Bessie [testimony of Elizabeth Painter her friend,given at Southwark Police Court at his trial for murder 18 March 1903].
In 1901 he "married" an teenager,18 year old Maud Marsh.Maud was the daughter of a labourer and her family had no money nor did she.He murdered her in October 1902.

He inherited nothing.


It is a mystery why he took up poisoning and waited until he was thirty years of age to do so.He had a pretty violent relationship with Lucy Baderski,his young 2nd wife from 1890 when he was only 24 or 25 years old ,who fled back to England from New York ,pregnant and alone and in fear of her life ,after being threatened by Chapman with a knife which he had told her he would use to cut off her head.

So no,the motive was not money Michael.

[perrymason]

Hi Norma,

Nice to see you, and you make some valid points against my statement, being that he did not always poison for obvious financial gain, his last victim had offered no such windfall.

But he does slowly poison a women with whose money he has used to start a business, and when he kills her that partnership and her money remain his.

Perhaps I made it too simplistic, I agree. But there is evidence that supports it on at least one murder.

Heres a thought...everyone seems to think that we see Jacks evolution from almost crawling leg stabber-thief to abdominal night surgeon in the public eye via earlier murders....so use the influence that murder has on Chapman after poisoning once. Might he do it a second time just cause he found he liked it? Or that it rid him of pests...figuratively speaking?

Did the abdominal mutilator show any signs in acts or deeds that suggest his goal...was to kill women?

You and I both know the goal that is evident in the murders of Mary Ann, Annie and at least Kate were to mutilate female organs and genitalia.

I see that as a fantasy killer....and Chapman one of practicality and cruelty.

Al the best Norma, Nats xox

[Malcolm X]

He inherited nothing.


It is a mystery why he took up poisoning and waited until he was thirty years of age to do so.He had a pretty violent relationship with Lucy Baderski,his young 2nd wife from 1890 when he was only 24 or 25 years old ,who fled back to England from New York ,pregnant and alone and in fear of her life ,after being threatened by Chapman with a knife which he had told her he would use to cut off her head.

So no,the motive was not money Michael.

hi Natalie

yes, money was never Chapman's motive to kill...he could've simply kicked the women out... told them to get lost etc etc ...but no, he poisoned them.

why he poisoned his later lovers is a total mystery.....no need to is there!
he was violent with women (we all know that), he beat Maud Marsh many times... but why start killing?

physical violence....threatening with knives, ``i'll cut off your head``... he owned guns.....

no, he wasn't just a smooth poisoner was he....but we have nothing that nails him as Jack the Ripper, only strong suspicion.

he must have felt murderous back in 1888 as well, did he use a knife on the street..............

``i'll cut off your head``.......now this is similar to the torso murders..definitely...and before this?........well!

this man, reading Sudgen's book, i would describe as almost a ``sex maniac``... i bet you that back in 1888, that he was searching for prostitutes on the street.... now what would happen if they said ``no`` to him, who as we have established; is extremely violent towards women, plus a serial killer later on ( be it a poisoner only)?

well, expect Chapman (without any eyewitnesses, or links to him) to be far more violent out on the street (this is obvious).... but enough to be Jack?......well, i dont know

whatever the case, this ``hands on, violent woman beater`` is extremely close to the Ripper..but way too smart a person to bloody his hands at home (unlike the fool W.Bury)..thus he tried to hide his crimes through poisoning

it will be impossible to convince members here Natalie... because this is something you just sense so strongly, plus Chapman is considered a ``stereotypical cowardly poisoner``...... but no; it's not as simple as that, he's a violent hands on bully, he's very quick tempered with murder in his heart.

my guess is, he bullied/ killed these woman because they insulted his ego in some way; or refused to do the ``housework etc etc``, or when a relationship simply went stale... Chapman was probably a control freak, most bullies are; with a serious inferiority complex....he probably thumped his women quite often.

my guess is, that Chapman would loose his temper most of all, if a prostitute said ``no`` to him and especially ``get lost mister`` , because this would insult his ego most of all.... he'd fly into a rage, now what would happen if Chapman was carrying a knife at the time.

yes, very complicated

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Michael and Malcolm X,
Thanks to you both for your thoughts---really helpful.

I dont know the answer either---its a hunch I have about him as much as anything.
Incidently Michael I see him as very much the dreamer.His activities in his Hastings Barber shop were very odd.He and Mary,presumably in happier times,put on a musical show for their customers.While she lathered ,he shaved the customers all the while having some sing song.Immediately afterwards Mary played tunes on the piano and Chapman and she encouraged the customers to join in.Meanwhile their business was so successful that they bought a boat,he dressed up as skipper and they sailed up and down the coast in it.Ashore he boasted about how he would take the boat to Boulogne.
Similarly he used to lie about being an American hunter and boast about owning guns and going out on big game shoots.
Another thing to remember is that Chapman/Klosowski lived in Cable Street on his own in his own Barber shop.This I believe was in 1888.He certainly lived in Cable Street at least for some time in order for his address to be recorded in the directory.So he could come and go as he pleased.
Best
Nats

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Malcolm,

this man, reading Sudgen's book, i would describe as almost a ``sex maniac``... i bet you that back in 1888, that he was searching for prostitutes on the street.... now what would happen if they said ``no`` to him?

What would a young, charismatic, sex maniac be doing soliciting the services of superannuated alcoholic bag-ladies in the small hours of the morning in the first place? Klosowski was clearly not a man who struggled to attract decent-looking female companions, so why would he resort to the dissipated vagrants who haunted the streets after the doss-houses had closed their doors?

[Sam Flynn]

Another thing to remember is that Chapman/Klosowski lived in Cable Street on his own in his own Barber shop.

We don't know that at all, Nats. For all we know there were 7 other Polish barbers and barbers' assistants kipping on the floor.

This I believe was in 1888. He certainly lived in Cable Street at least for some time in order for his address to be recorded in the directory.

The Post Office Directory, as I've shown, was accepting entries until well into the second week of December 1888. I'm not saying that Klosowski took up the running of the shop at the eleventh hour before the Directory presses rolled, but it can't be ruled out. We certainly have no way of knowing that Klosowski was there throughout the "Autumn of Terror". In fact, we can't even say that he was resident there at the time the Mary Kelly murder, and it's actually by no means certain that Klosowski was living there at all. He might have had digs elsewhere, using the Cable Street premises only as a business and postal address.

[c.d.]

Hi Malcolm,
What would a young, charismatic, sex maniac be doing soliciting the services of superannuated alcoholic bag-ladies in the small hours of the morning in the first place? Klosowski was clearly not a man who struggled to attract decent-looking female companions, so why would he resort to the dissipated vagrants who haunted the streets after the doss-houses had closed their doors?

Probably because they would have been much easier to kill...or did I miss something here? Good looking ones for sex, homeless ones for killing.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi CD,

Probably because they would have been much easier to kill...or did I miss something here?

Well, his actually being in the neighbourhood for one, and for another why homeless drabs were never targeted in a like manner again, despite the fact that we know that Klosowski was at large for a considerable number of years.

Good looking ones for sex, homeless ones for killing.

He seems to have dropped that balanced outlook during his poisoning spree - unless there were vagrants whom he'd visit every day, dosing them with tartar emetic until gradually they, too, died from the effects of green vomit.

[Malcolm X]

Hi Michael and Malcolm X,
Thanks to you both for your thoughts---really helpful.

I dont know the answer either---its a hunch I have about him as much as anything.
Incidently Michael I see him as very much the dreamer.His activities in his Hastings Barber shop were very odd.He and Mary,presumably in happier times,put on a musical show for their customers.While she lathered ,he shaved the customers all the while having some sing song.Immediately afterwards Mary played tunes on the piano and Chapman and she encouraged the customers to join in.Meanwhile their business was so successful that they bought a boat,he dressed up as skipper and they sailed up and down the coast in it.Ashore he boasted about how he would take the boat to Boulogne.
Similarly he used to lie about being an American hunter and boast about owning guns and going out on big game shoots.
Another thing to remember is that Chapman/Klosowski lived in Cable Street on his own in his own Barber shop.This I believe was in 1888.He certainly lived in Cable Street at least for some time in order for his address to be recorded in the directory.So he could come and go as he pleased.
Best
Nats

hi Natalie

yes he had flamboyancy/ charisma...he must have had these characteristcs anyway, to be able to attract and mesmerise so many women....he had the gift of the gab.

but of course, intense evil lurking below the surface...he's definitely an interesting character.

but could he have switched his M.O to be a poisoner, i would say that he could've been one of the 3% that was able to do so...he's definitely articulate/ adaptable enough to do so..

but he doesn't fit the profile of a mutilator as stated on this thread....and i agree with this, plus no more ripper style murders during this later period, what can i say....................well ( hunch)

i cant say much, that i havent already..

ok, he had a knife and threatened to use it, he was violent, he has revealed that he's got what it takes to be the ripper and maybe....the true nature of his evil was well hidden, just like Peter Sutcliff's wife didn't realise the full extent of her husband's evil...in fact, i think she knew nothing.

his lovers realised that Chapman was evil and far more so than he was revealing.......``i will cut your head off``.... now this is a very disturbing thing to say and it's not all that he ment to say either, because to do so and to hide her body correctly; to escape detection.....you'd be looking at another torso murder....and not left at home either...dumped far away, with the head/ arms/ legs dumped somewhere else..

did Chapman reveal only 20% of his true evil; with his lovers detecting the rest..but of course, not knowing what this was...``you do not know what this man is capable of``...yes i think they did.

but where they detecting Jack?..................i dont know

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Sam,
Yes I am well ready to accept he wasnt "living" there---- not if he had any unusual extra curricular sideline going on like say an abortion that turned into a torso!

Joking aside,Mrs Radan said he lodged with her for about six months. This too was only a walk away ---or a tram ride away, from Cable Street and Whitechapel .He was at Mrs Radan"s probably from June 1887 when he is thought to have arrived here.If that is so then the Cable Street address was from sometime AFTER the closing date for the Post Office Directory of 1888 in December 1887.
However,another important thing to remember is that he was recorded as having a business interest in Whitechapel over the whole period from sometime in 1888 to 1891 and this was his "own" barber shop----nobody else was on the deed of the lease of that shop ,a shop moreover which was right next to Pinchin Street where a headless torso was found.Remember too a barber shop is a place with knives,soap and water----helpful I would think for his varied "work".

[perrymason]

If we're just looking for a man that has a knife and could be violent....Severin fits the bill just like hundreds if not thousands of men in Londons East End at the very same time. Let alone ones that were in the Greater Metro area.

But we arent. We are looking for a rather specific kind of murderer-mutilator that covets carving and stolen organs from recently deceased women's abdomens...and commits the majority of his alleged murders in less than 10 minutes in public. Jack the Ripper is no mere cruel man, or the only one with a knife and a temper. But he is the only one besides Torso man that chooses this kind of hobby.

Cheers all.

[Malcolm X]

Probably because they would have been much easier to kill...or did I miss something here? Good looking ones for sex, homeless ones for killing.

c.d.

he maybe did'nt give a damn if they were ugly/homeless, this guy was very highly sexed........in addition, Kelly wasn't ugly was she or homeless

[Malcolm X]

If we're just looking for a man that has a knife and could be violent....Severin fits the bill just like hundreds if not thousands of men in Londons East End at the very same time. Let alone ones that were in the Greater Metro area.

But we arent. We are looking for a rather specific kind of murderer-mutilator that covets carving and stolen organs from recently deceased women's abdomens...and commits the majority of his alleged murders in less than 10 minutes in public. Jack the Ripper is no mere cruel man, or the only one with a knife and a temper. But he is the only one besides Torso man that chooses this kind of hobby.

Cheers all.

the trouble is, we dont have many other suspects..only broadshoulders/ hutch...or whoever the hell they were

[perrymason]

he maybe did'nt give a damn if they were ugly/homeless, this guy was very highly sexed........in addition, Kelly wasn't ugly was she or homeless

Nope, she was supposedly pretty, old enough to be any one of the other Canonicals daughters, and killed indoors in bed.

If Martha was his first, I would say respectfully that his first three victims were similar looking in almost every aspect... including less than attractive features.In their day a compliment might be offered that they were at best "handsome" or conversely, "matronly".

There were physical similarities until every crime short of buggery gets associated with Jack the Ripper....oh yeah, forgot buggery was in already.

Best regards

[Malcolm X]

Remember too a barber shop is a place with knives,soap and water----helpful I would think for his varied "work".

yea' Sweeney Todd

``our Mrs Lovett makes right fine pies``

it was also a place for minor surgery, about 100 years earlier, amputations/ teeth extraction etc