thought experiment

[Howard Brown]

sweet howard, I am moving close to you for other reasons. Your survivability is good. Definately not to hurt you. Respectfully Dave P.s. what if?

Move it on over with yo' bad self,Dave . Coincidentally, I have a friend from Kansas who is a Ripperologist...a Mengleberg or Menglefarb or something like that... you know...the podcast dude.

Seriously...its harder to contemplate or concieve the idea of someone who employed quick,violent,and hands-on bloody work....and then ! A couple of years later savoring the time it took his wives to slooooooooowly and eventually die.

Just me two cents.

[protohistorian]

not if the killers goal was watvhing the suffering. I think I met that guy Menglefarb! Respectfully Dave

[Sam Flynn]

If he arrived here in June 1887,as is believed to have been the case

There is no evidence that he did, Nats - until there is, I wouldn't believe it if I were you. If "Deposits £100 when from America I had £1000" (post 1893) is anything to go by, I wouldn't kid myself that he'd acquired any great fluency by 1888 either. How would he, if he'd spent the first 5 months of his tenure in England living with, and working for, Polish immigrants, before going to St George's East (hardly an exclusively Anglophone area - again, see the Lipski case) sometime in the latter half of 1888?

It's worth noting that Abraham Radin himself ended up living in Goulston Street by 1891 - and we know all about Goulston St. This alone is a good indicator of the tight circles in which immigrants typically moved.

[perrymason]

Hi all,

I did notice our synchronizing Sam,...it is nice to agree.

The man they called The Ripper seemed to place the actual death stroke as a lower priority to post mortem activities....and dealt the death blow before they could be watched "suffering" from stomach slashes. There seems to be almost a lack of interest in what many serial killers express is their ultimate moment...watching life leave someone.

Poisoning over months, with the daily acting that would be required using this method of killing...pretending to be concerned, saddened, ...saying "oh you poor dear" over and over again to someone he is intent on having dead ultimately anyway...these seem like dissimilar characters.

The man that killed the Unfortunates to disembowel them and sometimes take warm organs only had to portray himself as a client for 2-10 minutes.

There is a slow patience required to watch someone die from their bedside, there is little shown by a killer who accomplishes all that is done to Kate in perhaps 5-6 minutes.

There is no indication that Jack the Ripper committed his crimes for economic gain...in fact the victims demographic absolutely addresses that issue.

There is real evidence that Severin had great economic gain by committing his slow torturous murders.

The only way to merge these men is by way of a dramatic change in persona and/or character occurring between the slashing and poisoning acts.

Best regards all.

[Malcolm X]

Ben,
Severin Klosowski had acquired his own barber shop in Cable Street ,Whitechapel, by the latter part of 1887-.He had none of his own folk to help him with that business acquisition so its more than likely that by this time he had acquired sufficient basic interpersonal communication skills in the English language to engage in such a transaction competently.
Moreover,if he arrived in England in June 1887,the date usually given for his arrival here,there is every reason to believe he would have acquired a good level of basic English by June 1888 as this would concur with the average rate of linguistic development for bilingual learners.
Argue with the above statistical information all you like, but it is firmly based on scientific research into the average rates of L2 acquisition for developing bilinguals.There is absolutely no reason to suspect Severin had learning difficulties of any kind other than those connected with his emotional development.

exactly, well said; he would've definitely have spoken English....especially to run his own barber shop...he wasn't thick/illiterate, because as a trainee surgeon he was described as hard working/ a good pupil.

as we all know, he was a bullshitter...``i've done this, i've done that etc etc``...so expect him to be articulate and quick whitted....

it was said that he could ``mesmerize women``, physically repulsive and an evil face yes, but a real charmer in the company of a woman...he had the gift of the gab... so expect him to speak English fairly well

[Howard Brown]

The man that killed the Unfortunates to disembowel them and sometimes take warm organs only had to portray himself as a client for 2-10 minutes. -Mike R

Mike, I know that you aren't promoting any specific theory or agenda, but in all honesty, there's no definite proof, nor will there be any anytime soon, that Nichols,Eddowes, or Stride were soliciting or on the recieving end of a solicitiation which culminated in their death.

It also seems murderers who use a knife have a different mindset than ones who use poison. Even a murderer who dispatches his victims with a gun appears to differ from knife wielders. The knife user is a hands on,get down and dirty,grittier type than a gun totin' character.

Which is reason #Umpteen to dismiss Chapman ( for me) and for the fegelah Tumbelty.

All the best

How

[Sam Flynn]

exactly, well said; he would've definitely have spoken English....especially to run his own barber shop

...in a part of London so densely populated with Yiddish and Polish-speaking immigrants that becoming fluent in English would hardly have been necessary - nor indeed probable, after barely having lived one year in the country, and having lived and worked with other immigrants during that time.

[perrymason]

The man that killed the Unfortunates to disembowel them and sometimes take warm organs only had to portray himself as a client for 2-10 minutes. -Mike R

Mike, I know that you aren't promoting any specific theory or agenda, but in all honesty, there's no definite proof, nor will there be any anytime soon, that Nichols,Eddowes, or Stride were soliciting or on the recieving end of a solicitiation which culminated in their death.

It also seems murderers who use a knife have a different mindset than ones who use poison. Even a murderer who dispatches his victims with a gun appears to differ from knife wielders. The knife user is a hands on,get down and dirty,grittier type than a gun totin' character.

Which is reason #Umpteen to dismiss Chapman ( for me) and for the fegelah Tumbelty.

All the best

How

Hi Howard,

Nice to speak with you. On your first point, in my opinion mind you its pretty clear Polly likely was doing so, that Annie was almost certainly doing so, that Liz and Kate are assumed by many to have been doing so...and that there is no evidence Mary Jane was. But we do have evidence in the 2 deaths Im almost 100% convinced were linked by one man...Polly and Annie, that they sought clients. My personal opinion is that Polly and Annie were soliciting, as was Martha Tabram. I dont believe Liz was, nor that thats why Kate turned left out of Bishopsgate, nor do I think the evidence suggests that in the case of Mary Kelly.

On your second point I highlighted, couldnt agree more...although I do think the knife often is used to prevent or avoid much direct actual contact with the victim as well, when used to stab...a sort of tool. A man that likes holding warm if not hot internal organs along with the knife cutting usage is certainly an intimate killer...and one that is not satisfied with merely causing death.

All the best Howard.

[Malcolm X]

...in a part of London so densely populated with Yiddish and Polish-speaking immigrants that becoming fluent in English would hardly have been necessary - nor indeed probable, after barely having lived one year in the country, and having lived and worked with other immigrants during that time.

yes at this earlier time i dont mean fluent, i mean well enough to talk to an English customer or to chat up a woman/ prostitute... expect him to be fluent after about 10 months.... our migrant hotel workers can speak good enough English after about 3 months... they have to, because they have to serve our posh guests in the restaurant.
Chapman would've been able to speak good enough English in about this same 3 months.

[Howard Brown]

On your first point, in my opinion mind you its pretty clear Polly likely was doing so, that Annie was almost certainly doing so, that Liz and Kate are assumed by many to have been doing so...and that there is no evidence Mary Jane was. But we do have evidence in the 2 deaths Im almost 100% convinced were linked by one man...Polly and Annie, that they sought clients. My personal opinion is that Polly and Annie were soliciting, as was Martha Tabram. I dont believe Liz was, nor that that why Kate turned left out of Bishopsgate, nor do I think the evidence suggests that in the case of Mary Kelly.--Mike R.

Dear Mike:

We know that the last person to see Nichols alive or at least the one who communicated with police/press was certain...and I have no doubt that she was stating the truth ( Who debases their friend after their friend gets mutilated? It would be a total verguenza...total disgrace)...that Polly wanted to make some coin to get a room. No argument there. However, how she met up with Mr. Inevitable Fate is a discussion for another thread. Sorry to divert the discussion. All the best...HB

[Sam Flynn]

our migrant hotel workers can speak good enough English after about 3 months... they have to, because they have to serve our posh guests in the restaurant.

They're unlikely to be serving fellow migrants almost exclusively, though, Malcolm - and their boss/landlord presumably doesn't converse with them in Polish or Yiddish either. There would have been no need, and quite possibly very little opportunity, for Klosowski to have spoken much English during his initial years in England.

[Malcolm X]

Hi Howard,



On your second point I highlighted, couldnt agree more...although I do think the knife often is used to prevent or avoid much direct actual contact with the victim as well, when used to stab...a sort of tool. A man that likes holding warm if not hot internal organs along with the knife cutting usage is certainly an intimate killer...and one that is not satisfied with merely causing death.

All the best Howard.

yes, Chapman isn't this at all, he's selfish, cold and callous....he might well stab out on the street or strangle etc, but he doesn't fit the profile of a mutilator...it wouldn't interest him, he'd be more interested in the woman next door and her daughter too!

[Malcolm X]

They're unlikely to be serving fellow migrants almost exclusively, though, Malcolm - and their boss/landlord presumably doesn't converse with them in Polish or Yiddish either. There would have been no need, and quite possibly very little opportunity, for Klosowski to have spoken much English during his initial years in England.

no, i'm not convinced by this Sam.....many of his clients would've been English too...especially if his shop had a good reputation

[Natalie Severn]

...in a part of London so densely populated with Yiddish and Polish-speaking immigrants that becoming fluent in English would hardly have been necessary - nor indeed probable, after barely having lived one year in the country, and having lived and worked with other immigrants during that time.

Rubbish Sam.Seriously total rubbish.
I worked in Southall for twelve years .Southall is one of the most densely populated boroughs in London--Punjabi is the language most of community speak ,most of these coming from rural areas of the Punjab ,and I have never,in all my time there spent evaluating the learning needs of bilingual puplils -from 4 years of age to 18 years of age,come across a single one who didnt use basic English phrases within six months and basic English sentences, within twelve months,with a passive understanding of English much exceeding this spoken usage.This happened right across the intelligence spectrum too.From time to time the acquisition of literacy skills would be held up-usually when the person hadnt been to school in their country of birth as happens in some remote areas of the Punjab,otherwise it happened as Chomsky suggests,as a natural phenomena,governed partly by our programming.
On top of all that Immigrant people see it as in their business interests to acquire English so they are motivated.Go to Southall and you will try in vain to find someone out of the huge and densely populated district,who doest speak English----unless they have only been here a few weeeks or something like that.
Best

[Natalie Severn]

no, i'm not convinced by this Sam.....many of his clients would've been English too...especially if his shop had a good reputation

----and was in a part of Whitechapel where English was the predominant language such as Cable Street and George Yard/Whitechapel High Street.