thought experiment

[protohistorian]

I would expect a radical difference. We know that the primary reason for lingua francas is economics. We have Wolf engaged in just this enterprise with Severin. Most other interpersonal activities are carried on in the dominant language of the location. The need to learn at least conversational english would have been omnipresent. Certainly by the time you own a business and require interaction with the government, you had best have an operational understanding of the dominant laguage. Respectfully Dave

[Ben]

I'd be a little surprised if Wolf's experiences were any differnt to the majority of his friends and colleagues, but not impossible I guess.

[protohistorian]

Baderski almost certainly Polish. Spink and later Marsh, English. But we know that by the late 1890's he was conversent enough to be a publican. Considering how much of his behavior he obfuscated, we are unlikely to know.

What language did his wives speak? Surely they could converse.

Best regards

[protohistorian]

That would only mean Severin's use of english was new to wolf. Your interpretation is likely correct as far as wolf is concerned, beyond wolf we have no idea. Respectfully Dave

[Ben]

But the fact that Levishon observed that he was speaking English "then" with reference to 1895, invites the logical inference that he could not when he formerly acquainted with him. If his being able to speak English wasn't a new thing by 1895, there was obviously no need to mention it.

[protohistorian]

No it is not a quote, it is an abstraction from several sections. The nature of the discourse between these men likely determined the language to be used. Wolf does not proclude English, rather he assumes it to be a language that Severin was not fluid in enough to conduct business. Respectfully Dave

[Ben]

I disagree, Dave,

Are you sure that's an exact quote you're attributing to Levisshion; that he had "no occassion to hear Severin speak english"? From my recollections, it was observed that he spoke Polish and some Yiddish, which would be a peculiar observation if Klosowski could also speak English at the time. If he could, then the applicable observation would be that he spoke Polish and some Yiddish and some English.

As I mentioned, Levisshon's later observation that he could speak English "then" (i.e. in 1895) would only make any real sense if Klosowski could not speak English beforehand. The fact that he clearly mingled with his own milieu in those only days is also a telling indicator than an inability to speak English would not have been a hinderance.

[protohistorian]

That is not enirely correct. Wolf states he had no occassion to hear Severin speak english. The context of the exchanges between these men was that of a seller and buyer, and the need for precise communication may have lead the men to use Yiddish. Wolf can only give insight into one class of social interactions. I would think given total immersion within a foriegn language, Severin quickly learned enough for most of his social interactions. The lingua franca of polish or yiddish is not valid in all social contexts and Severin would have had a mandate to learn some english. Interactions with government officials is just one example. Respectfully Dave

[Ben]

Hi CD,

But as Sugden pointed out, it is likely that Klosowski and Levisshon conversed in Polish and that Levisshon might not have been aware of the progress that Klosowski had made in speaking English

Probably not, or else Levisshon would have specified that Klosowski spoke only Polish and Yiddish to him. Another crucial clue is evinced from levisshon's later testimony, which referenced Klosowski's time in Tottenham High Road when the two caught up with eachother again in 1895. I'm probabaly paraphasing, but it was observed that "(Klosowski) could speak English then". The obvious inference being that he couldn't when the two were first acquainted.

Besides if you are going to move to a foreign country, wouldn't it make sense to try to learn a little of the language prior to doing so?

Not when you know that your intented destination was guaranteed to be chock full of fellow Polish immigrants all speaking your native tongue, and that your first employment prospects are likely to reside with them too.

Best regards,
Ben

[c.d.]

Hi SW, and welcome!

According to the evidence of Wolf Levisshon, it's very likely that Klosowski couldn't speak any English in 1888.

All the best,
Ben

Hi Ben,

But as Sugden pointed out, it is likely that Klosowski and Levisshon conversed in Polish and that Levisshon might not have been aware of the progress that Klosowski had made in speaking English. Besides if you are going to move to a foreign country, wouldn't it make sense to try to learn a little of the language prior to doing so?

c.d.

[Spitalfields Wanderer]

You are right Ben, certainly Chapman wouldn't have needed to have learnt much/any English to get by but (you can probably tell he is my suspect of choice!) it would certainly have benefited him to have picked up enough to make some degree of conversation. I am just looking around the site and familiarising myself with things and honestly the wealth and depth of information and the breadth of informed opinion is staggering, it is going to be a great place to be. Right, off to read some more and then, no doubt, to find my suspect of choice changes (again!). Talk again soon I hope.

All the best
SW

[Ben]

Hi SW,

While it's true that Klosowski would have been working with the public, his friends, acquaintances and clientele were likely to consist of fellow Polish immigrants, of which there were a great many where he lived. An inability to speak English would therefore not have been a hinderance. They would all have communicated with eachother in their native tongue.

Best regards,
Ben

[Spitalfields Wanderer]

Proto and Ben - many thanks for getting back so soon. I am now off to read Levisshon's evidence in full! On the other hand, as Proto says with the dense population of immigrants in the area would an accent really stand out or even be considered that material. I feel, myself, that Chapman would have acquired enough English to make basic conversation etc in the short time he had been in England esp as he was working with the public at the time. Back to the drawing board - thanks again guys.

[Ben]

Hi SW, and welcome!

According to the evidence of Wolf Levisshon, it's very likely that Klosowski couldn't speak any English in 1888.

All the best,
Ben