Why did he lied?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lechmere, thank you for detailing your thoughts so thoroughly. I must say I've shared some of your doubts, but you hit upon a few other things I'd never thought of. My only question would be, if Hutch was where he said he was (outside Millers court), then why didn't Lewis see him as well, and why didn't HE see wideawake man? Is it perhaps a timing problem?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lechmere]

Tom
The Lewis’s Wide-awake man doesn’t equal Hutch ‘discussion’ occurred in the midst of one of the other Hutch threads – I dread to think which one.

In brief:

I made the point that at the time and for a great many years thereafter, absolutely no one, including the police and the many organs of the press made the connection between the wide-awake man and Hutch.
I said that if it was so obvious that they were one and the same, then someone would have thought so then. Lewis after all was available to make a positive ID. Hutchinson was given considerable prominence for a while and his statements would have been under the microscope.

Of all the testimony heard at the inquest, Lewis’s was pretty much passed over as being a bit dull and lacking in interest.
This makes it somewhat unlikely that her testimony will have got on the old local grape vine and arrived in Hutch’s ears.
It is impossible that he could have sat in the inquest as it is known that the room was small and Abberline would have seen him – and don’t forget Abberline interviewed him later that day.
The last possibility is that Hutch was in the crowd and saw Lewis going into or out of Shoreditch Town Hall and assumed she was going to ‘finger him’. Bear in mind that their supposed encounter on Dorset Street several days before was exceptionally brief - a fleeting passing of two ships in the night - and she would almost certainly have been dressed differently at the inquest, it would seem unlikely that he would have recognised her.

The more likely and common place explanation is that Hutch went to work that day and turned up at Commercial Street Nick after work – it was 6 pm after all. He probably had an attack of conscience, thought that he might make a difference, wanted a bit of limelight or whatever.

There is more than a hint at the reason why wide-awake man didn’t equal Hutch in the extant record. Namely Lewis described her man as ‘not-tall but stout’ whereas Hutch was described as being of ‘military appearance’.
However you try and cut it, and when this was discussed inevitably some did try – these two admittedly skimpy descriptions are not exactly complementary.

It seems to me that this is one of those instances where something seems ‘obvious’ to people now, that went by on the nod at the time.
If there was a connection I am certain it would have been noticed. The fact that it was not suggests very strongly that they were very obviously different people. There must have been some obvious ‘thing’ that meant Hutch simply wasn’t wide-awake man.
This is similar to the long discussions relating to the locking mechanism to 13 Miller’s Court. This issue is the cause of regular debate nowadays with the implication that it has a major bearing on the case. It didn’t so much as merit a line of discussion at the time (I think) which tells me that the door opening mechanism was of no consequence to the conduct of the Kelly murder.
If there was some trick to it which would have allowed someone access then I am certain the matter would have been raised at the time.
I’ll give one more example – the graffiti. If it had been there for any length of time prior to the night of the ‘double event’, then I am sure a journalist would have found someone in the relevant stairwell who would have told them that they had seen it since lunchtime or whenever. My guess is that over 30 people will have lived up that stairwell.
That is not to say that some things were not missed at the time, and that the police made many mistakes. However they and the media were not total idiots.

Did witnesses fail to appear at inquests?
We know Robert Paul was going to, but the police had his address. He had failed to report to them so they raided his house and drag the poor fellow out of bed to make him turn up. Then he moaned that he had lost pay in consequence of this – as did other people who had been pressed into turning up. Being an inquest witness was not a popular activity for many.
Then there is the case of Packer – who went to Scotland Yard (not just Commercial Street Nick) to make a statement at 4 pm on 4th October, but the Stride inquest opened on 1st October. The Kelly inquest was deliberately kept brief. Hutchinson can hardly have anticipated this. The Stride inquest went on for days.

Talking of Stride, if Hutch was worried about being spotted by Lewis and this promoted his appearance at Commercial Street Nick, then why didn’t he appear after Schwartz supposedly spotted him in the form of the BS man? After all he knew Schwartz had seen him as he shouted at Schwartz...

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac. Thanks for that.

His behaviour is decidedly odd, but there are other explanations.

Not sure that GH thought it just a client transaction.

Cheers.
LC

I agree that there a few possibilities. I wouldn't say H's story/account is beyond belief.

I would be surprised, however, in the event H did not know Mary was a prostitute - considering they were friends.

[lynn cates]

A-MAn sought

Hello Tom. Thanks. Another good point.

I've seen scuttlebut in "The Echo" indicating that the Met was still looking for A-man as late as the 15th or 16th.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

transaction

Hello Mac. Thanks for that.

His behaviour is decidedly odd, but there are other explanations.

Not sure that GH thought it just a client transaction.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

The possible identification of Astrakhan Man

but if anyone is saying did this guy look like Druitt, then yes he does, he also looks like J.KELLY, a shorter version of Tumblety/ Prince Albert, but he's most like G.Chapman for sure.

If you mean the famous illustration of Astrakhan Man, I agree that it bears a strikingly eerie resemblance to George Chapman. However, I don’t believe that illustration was done with the assistance of Hutch at all, and in fact is likely an exaggeration to some extent to how the man really would have appeared.

Hello Richard.

"Instead of being so negative, we should do a turn about, and actually believe what he said, and ask what this would imply."

Excellent point.

Yes, it is an excellent point. And apparently the police thought so as well. What doesn’t appear to get discussed much with Hutch hounds is that Astrakhan Man might have in fact been identified by police in December of 1888 when they arrested Joseph Isaacs, who fit Hutch’s description. Hutch in fact might have pointed him out to them. We know that Isaacs was able to clear himself, and we know likewise that Hutch was subsequently dropped from all consideration as a witness of JTR, which is not the same as saying the police decided he was a liar. They may have merely concluded that the man he saw was not the killer of Kelly.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac. All or nothing? I'll have to think about that one. A young man like Hutchinson could be quite curious, yet not act on it.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Yeah, true enough.

There's no accounting for taste.

Personally, I would have done all or nothing, but concede that others see it differently.

In my view, it doesn't quite add up. He's suspicious enough to stand watch for 45 minutes. Presumably, H was aware this was a client/prostitute transaction, which should have meant he was out in 10 minutes, which, in turn, should have increased H's suspicion. So, with a certain amount of suspicion he decides to stand watch; with his suspicion heightened he decides to walk away and leave them to it. Doesn't seem reasonable to me.

[lynn cates]

Ah, youth!

Hello Mac. All or nothing? I'll have to think about that one. A young man like Hutchinson could be quite curious, yet not act on it.

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac.

"If he was nosey, why not have a look through the window?"

Well, it seems to me that should one emerge at that moment, it would be difficult to deny what you are about. Not so further up the court.

Cheers.
LC

Well then, Lynn, what is the use in just standing around like a spare bottle of milk?

All or nothing, surely?

[lynn cates]

cure for nosiness

Hello Mac.

"If he was nosey, why not have a look through the window?"

Well, it seems to me that should one emerge at that moment, it would be difficult to deny what you are about. Not so further up the court.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

One in a Millen

Hello Malcolm. I refer to Francis Millen. His photo and description is on the thread below, post #430.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=179643&highlight=irish#post179643

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac.

"The problematic part of the story for me is that he hung around for 3/4 of an hour. I find it hard to accept that he was a concerned citizen prepared to watch over her due to a 'suspicious' man entering her home, only to walk away when said suspicious man is clearly doing far more than a 5 minute love-in."

Used to be a problem for me. But he could be just a nosy fellow.

"The other part I'm struggling with a touch is Mary asking H for money: is this how it worked in those days? H, un unemployed man, needing every penny he could get his hands on, is seen as good for a sub by Mary?"

But this happens even today. Society is still populated with chronic givers and takers.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

If he was nosey, why not have a look through the window.

There certainly are, but presumably with the two of them being friends Mary was well aware that H was on the bones of his arse.

[Fleetwood Mac]

My problems with Astrakhan man? No one else saw him. And was for sure a striking character for Whitechapel. And of course, so much details.

No one else came forward more like.

I think it's fair to say that the denizens of the East End of London didn't make for good witnesses.

[Fleetwood Mac]

At the risk of initiating a ripperological sh!tstorm, I have to say that I am utterly mystified as to why George Hutchinson is considered such a strong suspect by so many. Perhaps I am being dense. Someone please explain.

Best wishes,
Steve.

I think people have to be honest and say:

1) He places himself there at 2.30 in the morning, last person to see her alive (possibly, for the benefit of Richard).

2) He offers a story/account that is open to doubt.

3) Lewis sees someone hanging around outside around the same time. You could take this as corroboration that H was there; personally I do not. Regardless, it's another small piece in the jigsaw.

These points don't make him a decent bet for being JTR, but they make him a decent option when compared with some of the other suspects.

I have heard much flimsier cases regarding some of the favoured suspects.

The real problem with Hutchinson is that we simply don't know much about him, which makes him a sort of dead end in the grand scheme of the puzzle and therefore someone who detracts from the game, which I'm sure everyone enjoys.

He's not my favoured suspect, I don't really have one. I think Swanson's notes make Kosminski a stand out suspect, and I like someone such as Grainger (my preconceived idea of what Jack was like).

No one can deny, surely, that Hutchinson must be someone who is viewed with suspicion. My guess is that he was in it for a few quid, but where's my evidence?

Edited to add: I suppose the thing that goes against H for me is that there are a lot more cranks that attach themselves to case than there are killers.

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm. But the bloke in question was an Irishman and, this one in particular, might be thought to look Jewish (whatever that means).

And given MJK knew him, their meeting would have been natural.

Cheers.
LC

these two did not greet each other as if they were old friends, plus; i have to say that i have no idea who you are talking about...

he never said JEW that's true, but he didn't need to, he said a foreigner from Petticoat lane.

but if anyone is saying did this guy look like Druitt, then yes he does, he also looks like J.KELLY, a shorter version of Tumblety/ Prince Albert, but he's most like G.Chapman for sure.