Why did he lied?

[Fleetwood Mac]

2....BLOTCHY FACE seems too early to me, plus seen very well, but as i've said many times, been seen well by this useless bunch means nothing!

Blotchy is only too early when you assume he was in there for a 10 minute spell.

But:

1) He is equipped with a quart of ale, suggesting the two of them are about to have a drink before the entertainment begins.

2) If he is only there for a 10 minute prostitute/punter exchange, then why does he have a quart of ale?

3) Why exactly would Mary take someone back to her hovel? Presumably money is the driving force as she is soliciting. If money is the driving force, then why not just go round the corner; what is in her home that gives her greater bargaining power to increase her cash receipt? A bed for the night.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Malcolm X,

Are you certain the streets were dead?

Between 29th March and 15th November 1888 the Commercial Street tramway was under construction.

Regards,

Simon

[Malcolm X]

I agree, Abby. Odds are that him and Hutchinson were the lasts persons seen outside Miller's Court, he's the best suspect. As others have said, can't see Mary going for more clients at that hour.
Hutchinson still bothers me though: given Lewis testimony, I think is pretty safe to say he was really was there....weird, to think of 2 men loitering about just there in same night. So, it was too risky for him to go the police if he was just an attention seeker, having being there. And there's the thing that he really doesn't say why he was there.

to me it seems unlikely that she would've gone out again after 3am, plus it seems to me that he was there....... but only just !

now, if he was indeed there then he probably is JTR, because then everything makes sense.

but if he wasn't there, then you can forget LA DE DA, we're Screwed!
most likely suspect will be either BLOTCHY FACE or just about anyone that looks like JOE BARNETT!

[Malcolm X]

Well to be fare Malcolm, Sarah Lewis had passed the man and arrived in Millers Court by 2:30am, Kennedy suggested it was 3:00am when she saw him.

Stated times are our cross to bear, if you remember the Stride case, Edward Spooner who came running to the yard from Fairclough St. after Stride's body was found, stated he felt sure, "I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard."

He was a clear half-hour out, yet we don't dismiss him or question his honesty.
The local populace were not always sure of the time, but perhaps they felt obligated to appear to know when questioned by police. The difference of 2:30 - 3:00 am between Lewis & Kennedy is of no serious consequence.




That might depend on how much rent you owe?

Regards, Jon S.

No not quite, Sarah saw GH at about 2.30 am, but Kennedy saw a smarter man talking to 2 women at after 3am, NOW this later sighting is the one that seems wrong to me, this smarter man does not look like GH, he's looking more like a tamed down version of LA DE DA, very tamed down

if GH was there, then he has got 2-3am sussed out, dont forget that he stated that he heard the clock chime at 3am when he left.

but i'm not so sure about GH any more, because it seems like he's made up his story, to suit a quiet period of time during that everning WHEN THE STREETS WERE DEAD....e.g he has to be long gone by 3am, because that's when the next sighting of MJK is, even if it does seem wrong/ not MJK, or even back at 2.30am

but....
1... S Lewis never said that it wasn't GH that she saw, plus; why did GH come forward if there was a strong possibility that she might say, ``that wasn't the guy outside``
2....BLOTCHY FACE seems too early to me, plus seen very well, but as i've said many times, been seen well by this useless bunch means nothing!

i dont know what to think right now

[Morgana LeFay]

I agree, Abby. Odds are that him and Hutchinson were the lasts persons seen outside Miller's Court, he's the best suspect. As others have said, can't see Mary going for more clients at that hour.
Hutchinson still bothers me though: given Lewis testimony, I think is pretty safe to say he was really was there....weird, to think of 2 men loitering about just there in same night. So, it was too risky for him to go the police if he was just an attention seeker, having being there. And there's the thing that he really doesn't say why he was there.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM
The more i think about it, the more I think you may be right. If you beleive Hutch lied about A-man (I think the probability is high) but not the murderer the more I think that Blotchy has to be our man. he was the last to bee seen with MK. Maybe we should be looking for a fair skinned/haired culprit ala lawendes man and Ada Wilson as opposed to a brown haired man.

Not only that, Abby, but the blotchy fella was in there with a quart of ale, meaning he wasn't going anywhere in a hurry. If they're after a quick 5 minutes then why not just go round the corner and then Mary could have moved onto the next punter.

To me, the attraction for Mary was being paid for the bed for the night. That's really the only thing she gains from going to her hovel that she can't get on the street.

[Abby Normal]

Seeing as Blotchy Head had long since stripped the poor girl bare, I doubt it too.

Hi FM
The more i think about it, the more I think you may be right. If you beleive Hutch lied about A-man (I think the probability is high) but not the murderer the more I think that Blotchy has to be our man. he was the last to bee seen with MK. Maybe we should be looking for a fair skinned/haired culprit ala lawendes man and Ada Wilson as opposed to a brown haired man.

[Wickerman]

this guy was seen after 3am, i'm pretty sure he was,...

Well to be fare Malcolm, Sarah Lewis had passed the man and arrived in Millers Court by 2:30am, Kennedy suggested it was 3:00am when she saw him.

Stated times are our cross to bear, if you remember the Stride case, Edward Spooner who came running to the yard from Fairclough St. after Stride's body was found, stated he felt sure, "I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard."

He was a clear half-hour out, yet we don't dismiss him or question his honesty.
The local populace were not always sure of the time, but perhaps they felt obligated to appear to know when questioned by police. The difference of 2:30 - 3:00 am between Lewis & Kennedy is of no serious consequence.

i very much doubt that MJK was still out on the streets searching for another customer at this very late hour.... 3am just seems far too late.

That might depend on how much rent you owe?

Regards, Jon S.

[Fleetwood Mac]

this guy was seen after 3am, i'm pretty sure he was, so yet again GH was able to slot himself into a quiet period of time between 2 and 3am,

i very much doubt that MJK was still out on the streets searching for another customer at this very late hour.... 3am just seems far too late.

Seeing as Blotchy Head had long since stripped the poor girl bare, I doubt it too.

[Malcolm X]

but i'm not happy with GH going to the police as JTR.

1.....GH would have been seen at the police station and over the next 2 days by flipping loads of people, different police on duty etc.....he could quite easily be recognised.

i never gave this much thought before but i do now, this is a long month since Eddowes died, so he might be ok now.

being ``he looks like the bloke i saw`` isn't enough, but it still makes me worry

[Malcolm X]

Well actually there was another man. We've discussed this elsewhere, Sarah Lewis & Mrs Kennedy both described a "well-dressed man" loitering around the Commercial St. & Dorset St. corner about the same time as Hutchinson said he saw Astrachan.
Lewis & Kennedy may have been the same woman, or maybe not. The man they saw 'may' have been the same man Hutchinson saw, but again, maybe not.
Opinions differ on these questions for a number of reasons.

Regards, Jon S.

this guy was seen after 3am, i'm pretty sure he was, so yet again GH was able to slot himself into a quiet period of time between 2 and 3am,

i very much doubt that MJK was still out on the streets searching for another customer at this very late hour.... 3am just seems far too late.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wick,

Good observation.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

....1) He didn't wanted to say he was the last man who saw Kelly alive. Wanted to make sure police didn't blame him. Or he himself was the killer.
or maybe there WAS a man, and Hutchinson gave a false description. Why?:

What do you think?

Well actually there was another man. We've discussed this elsewhere, Sarah Lewis & Mrs Kennedy both described a "well-dressed man" loitering around the Commercial St. & Dorset St. corner about the same time as Hutchinson said he saw Astrachan.
Lewis & Kennedy may have been the same woman, or maybe not. The man they saw 'may' have been the same man Hutchinson saw, but again, maybe not.
Opinions differ on these questions for a number of reasons.

Regards, Jon S.

[Malcolm X]

Tom
The Lewis’s Wide-awake man doesn’t equal Hutch ‘discussion’ occurred in the midst of one of the other Hutch threads – I dread to think which one.

In brief:

I made the point that at the time and for a great many years thereafter, absolutely no one, including the police and the many organs of the press made the connection between the wide-awake man and Hutch.
I said that if it was so obvious that they were one and the same, then someone would have thought so then. Lewis after all was available to make a positive ID. Hutchinson was given considerable prominence for a while and his statements would have been under the microscope.

Of all the testimony heard at the inquest, Lewis’s was pretty much passed over as being a bit dull and lacking in interest.
This makes it somewhat unlikely that her testimony will have got on the old local grape vine and arrived in Hutch’s ears.
It is impossible that he could have sat in the inquest as it is known that the room was small and Abberline would have seen him – and don’t forget Abberline interviewed him later that day.
The last possibility is that Hutch was in the crowd and saw Lewis going into or out of Shoreditch Town Hall and assumed she was going to ‘finger him’. Bear in mind that their supposed encounter on Dorset Street several days before was exceptionally brief - a fleeting passing of two ships in the night - and she would almost certainly have been dressed differently at the inquest, it would seem unlikely that he would have recognised her.

.
Talking of Stride, if Hutch was worried about being spotted by Lewis and this promoted his appearance at Commercial Street Nick, then why didn’t he appear after Schwartz supposedly spotted him in the form of the BS man? After all he knew Schwartz had seen him as he shouted at Schwartz...

i very much doubt that GH went to Abberline because he was worried about what she saw of him, in fact it's totally the opposite, he wants her to see him really well, he thus went to Abberline hoping that he was seen outside.

to find out what's going on at the inquest, as you say, behind closed doors, he only has to talk to one of the nosey residents in the crowd...or talk to the residents after they've left the inquest, ``here's a shilling love, what did you tell the coppers``... because GH didn't go strait to Abberline, he waited a few hours.

therefore at the very least, hoping that he might have been seen standing outside, or suspicious of it, Hutchinson must have looked similar to him... unfortunately there is no good description of either, in fact it's bloody dreadful, but it still must be within about 50 %

also, GH has to be careful of this BLOTCHY FACE, fly in the soup character, so i doubt that he looked like him.

as for BS this is quite simple, he aint JTR, he's sailor boy that said earlier on, ``you'd say anything except your prayers``. you dont think that JTR would behave like BS do you..... he was not even aware that Schwartz was behind him.

would you worry about any of these suspect descriptions if you were JTR ?...... definitely not, because these aren't even bad, they're absolutely useless descriptions...... you know that, we all know that, JTR knows that.

THEREFORE IT HAS TO BE THIS :-

GH went to the police because he wanted too, but he did not go to the police the next day, like a normal person DEFINITELY WOULD, especially if he was innocent, a concerned citizen and a supposed friend of MJK.

he went because he was either a total liar and after a reward etc....or he is JTR, i'm sorry to say this but logic tells me that there's no other reason why, but either of these will require him to do his homework and go to the inquest first.

if he's JTR why does he have to go to the inquest first, after all, he knows exactly who was around or not that night?..... this is very interesting, because according to my theory he was only seen by Lewis and this actually helps him.

he needs to be bloody sure that he didn't leave something behind in that room by mistake, that room is a hideous mess and it's dark too, he needs to know from the inquest that the police dont have something from the killer left behind in there, he's also after gossip, he needs to know how confident the police are, he needs to make sure that it is indeed safe to go to the police.

his description of LA DE DA is rediculous, if i was Abberline i would have said at the time, ``you're making this up as you go along``, but unfortunately we're missing so much..... so so so much !

Abberline was not suspicious of him at first.... at all, this is very odd, it tells me that GH looked and behaved nothing like a savage mutilator, not even close, mind you, nor did BUNDY, but it also tells me that GH did not look like a street thug either, because Abberline would have been suspicious of this too, because they would have been looking for someone like BS and maybe there was a policeman on duty there, or over the next 2 days, that might recognise him from the night of Stride's murder etc

``that guy you just interviewed, i recognise him, i saw him near Berner st the night of Stride's murder``

OH FOR GOD'S SAKE, I'M GETTING FED UP WITH THIS, DAMN IT, THIS IS FATAL

oh dear oh dear, i'm not too happy with JTR going to the police, because the next thing they would've done is to I.D parade him with regards to Eddowes, he is now in serious trouble.

it is therefore very risky for JTR to go to the police, unless he was 100% certain that no copper ever saw him at close range, whatever the case, you can see how risky it is.

if anybody else sees him it's ok, but not a copper and definitely not a copper if he ever decides to kill again..well, he definitely cant mutilate again that's for sure, because from now on, he can even be recognised by a journalist, let alone 30 coppers, plus half of the EAST END

going to the police screws him up, he can never kill again in this area, but it's also very dodgy for his past murders.

i'm not sure now, i'm going to have to do some serious thinking, JTR could only go to the police if he wasn't seen by a policeman at close range, because only he knows this, mind you, he might never have been

[Lechmere]

Timings are often almost impossible to reconcile throughout this case without a shoehorn.
Hutchinson may not gave been there at all. Or on the previous day!
Or Lewis may well have been a little in front if him - she saw a similar couple to the A-man and Kelly before she went into Millers Court.
She says she saw someone outside Crossinghams - I would guess at any given time of day peoplewere hanging around outside Crossinghams.