Romford to Millers court

[harry]

Ruby,
In reply to your post 107.
1 If its not proven it must be unproven.

2 Name those persons you or others are known to have done so.

3 It makes a lot of difference.

4 I quite agree,Hutchinson shoulld be compared with civilians of 1888,and conditions of 1888.I have argued against comparing him with trained military personnel,or with personnel who may have had similar experience.

I too have had military experience,both as infantry man and basic training instructor.I know what inductees can do compared with trained soldiers.
None of what you or anyone else has said proves Hutchinson walked from Whitechapel to Romford and back on that day.I wish someone could.

[Robert]

I imagine Bob's been trying to trace GH in the military, but without any luck.

He remembers seeing one article which gave his age as c28, but can't remember the newspaper.

Tracing the real GH is only second to tracing the real MJK.

[Rubyretro]

.
1 [QUOTE] If its not proven it must be unproven.[/QUOTE

It might be unproven but so were millions of 'facts' until they were proven (the Earth is round etc -I'm sure that you'd have shown me maps at the time to prove that it wasn't !) : because something is not 'proven YET' in no way means that it's not true.

In the mean time we can go on what was stated at the time (that Hutch walked to Romford), and the PROBABILITY of it being true : that is whether it was PROVABLE at the time, and whether we think that it is PROBABLE that competent Police Officers involved in the enquiry would have bothered to check out a major witness, or not ,on what was easily provable in his story.

That they couldn't prove the existence (or not) of Astrakhan Man (if he didn't exist) is one thing. But someone actively looking for work in Romford would have approached prospective employers, and they COULD be checked out.

On the balance of probability, we can assume that the Police a) weren't a shower of idiots and b) they would have checked out a man placed at the murder scene at the crucial time.

The fact that they didn't arrest Hutch would appear to indicate (on a reasonable balance of probability), that his story (such as was verifiable) checked out.

Furthermore, do you imagine that a Hutch recounting a tissue of lies, and willingly placing himself at MJK's murder ecene would lie on anything which he could be caught out on -and risk hanging ?

Why an earth would he have lied about walking to Romford (which could be checked) when he might hve given another plausible reason (which couldn't be), for being in Miller's Court

2 Name those persons you or others are known to have done so.

OK -I've thought about this -it's not an idle promise (threat !). Set the conditions and I will personally walk this distance to show you that I can do it
(I'm an unfit woman of 50). I worked out that it's roughly Avignon -Isle sur la Sorgue (I've already walked half of it, so I'm not afraid). I will stay a day there and then walk back, and do a crossword puzzle on arriving back, of your choice, as long as it's a 'straight puzzle' and not a 'cryptic...!'

Up to you to make me see someone you know or film on a mobile to prove it..
(and of course Hutch couldn't have cheated by going by car).

3

It makes a lot of difference.

I promise not to cheat by hitching if I walk it !


4. You may be a trained Army Instructor -I don't care : I bet you that it's still not a 'feat' to walk that distance, and that Victorian people were used to it, and besides which Hutch may have had army training anyway (and if he didn't , it's beside thepoint anyway).

[claire]

But, with all the respect in the world, Harry, it's not impossible for a reasonably fit (I don't mean fit in the military, or gym, sense of the word; just that they weren't labouring with an illness or injury) person to walk that distance in the time given. I don't know why it seems so hard to believe. It's a fair old trek, but if it was so outlandish, wouldn't he just have been laughed out of the police station? One doesn't need military training to walk distances such as this; one simply needs to walk regularly, which logic and history hint he would have done...not having a carriage or a Fiat 500. (In any case, looking at the statement, he says he 'walked all the way,' but this part of the sentence seems to attach to his return journey. We just do not know if he took the train earlier in the day...why would you not, if you had a little money?)

As to the issue of tracing him in the military, this is premised on his telling the truth about his identity, either to the police in 1888 or to the recruiter at the time of signing up.

Lastly, I know I am insufficiently credulous to the point of being rude, but if Hutchinson was part of some police operation, WHY on earth would he turn up at a police station to give his 'evidence,' and why on earth would the police permit this to be publicised, when the witness had only mentioned seeing 'a' man? (You see I am being good and allowing the bizarre supposition that she was murdered whilst under surveillance; even though every cell in my body is complaining that this would be one of the strangest hits on record. Why bother? You want to mimic JtR? They'd ruled in Stride; why not just do the bare minimum?) And, further, I am presuming that this 'police' 'operation' hinges on Kelly's involvement in you-know-what (and I do utterly respect the work being done to obtain more on the SB ledgers, so I'm not disparaging that, just questioning MJK's involvement therein), why would she do herself the disservice of falling so behind in her rent if she was in the employ of you-know-what? I just don't understand it. It would be like aka Anna Chapman being allowed to become so poor whilst under cover that she had to sign on with the social. Makes no sense.

Anyhow, someone will now tell me I have missed the point and/or don't know anything about anything, so I'll apologise in advance.

[Rubyretro]

I certainly missed something about you-know-who being in the you-know -what ! (???)

I probably didn't read back the Posts far enough..

As far as I know, Hutch was never quoted or cited as being in the military -
-I just mooted a 'Theory', based on pure speculation as my ascerbic mate, Marc, pointed out with alacrity..

Otherwise -I agree : it was no huge feat to walk to Romford from Whitechapel, and if he interspersed other means of transport (which we'll never know), it was no big deal and perfectly possible..

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

I imagine Bob's been trying to trace GH in the military, but without any luck.

He remembers seeing one article which gave his age as c28, but can't remember the newspaper.

That's very interesting to me ! (I shall try and contact Bob to see..)

Very interesting that an article gives Hutch's age as c28 -it would be lovely
to know if that was based on what Hutch said, or the appreciation of the journalist writing..

(reading around generally about the period earlier, I saw that with new , shorter, army contracts alot of men were quoted as getting out in their mid -late '20s. With only one term, they would get no pension and have just what they stood up in. Over 90% of them were single. Ordinary soldiers were very badly looked on by the population. They would typically do 50% of their term in the colonies. There were were hundreds of thousands of horses in the army and there is the term ' soldier farrier' ) -in short, I think it's a track worth investigating..

[caz]

Did he leave a red Hanky in the room , and was pretrified that it could be traced to himself?

Hardly, or he wouldn't have come forward and brought the damned thing up:

"Ah, Mr. Hutchinson is it? Mr. George Hutchinson? In that case we have managed to trace the red hanky in question to your good self. Perhaps you would be good enough to sign for it on the way out. But before you go, what's all this bollocks about some Flash Harry giving it to the deceased? Be petrified, Mr. H. Be very petrified."

"Oh Christ, I've just soiled myself."

...if he'd been thrown out or exhibited any strange behaviour in the army, that might give a clue to someone worth investigating.

Like most people, I can't really believe that JtR had never exhibited any
unusual or devient behaviour before turning to murder and mutilation...

...unless you imagine that
Abberline et al were a complete bunch of incompetents, then we can imagine that they DID check out the last person to have seen Mary alive (in the
absence of A Man)...

I agree.

Innocent.

Anyone fancy a pint?

Love,

A Bored Jury Member
X

[caz]

Seriously though, I agree with Robert on the subject of the red hanky.

If one was found in the room, Hutch's account had a significant piece of material evidence to support it. He would have had to know something. The fly in the ointment is that when his story lost favour for whatever reason, the hanky could not have been discarded as easily as its alleged owner.

In short, they could not have let Hutch off the hook before getting to the bottom of the hanky business. Another reason why he wouldn't have mentioned it voluntarily if he had given it to Mary himself.

Love,

Caz
X

[Marc]

I too have had military experience,both as infantry man and basic training instructor.I know what inductees can do compared with trained soldiers.
None of what you or anyone else has said proves Hutchinson walked from Whitechapel to Romford and back on that day.I wish someone could.

Hi Harry,

I've adressed the difference between a trained soldier (able to march 16 miles in a row while carrying a 60 lbs. kit) and an untrained healthy youth (able to march the same distance and stay fit BUT WITHOUT carrying a 60 lbs. kit).

Would you have something to add to my comments on this matter ?

More specifically, do you think that the police would have let Hutchinson guide patrols in pursuit of his elusive Astrakan Man if his testimony of
having gone back from Romford would have been mostly unplausible ?

Even more specifically, would you suggest that the investigating police officers at the time of the WM were not able to tell whether the witness (Hutchinson) was able to walk back from Romford on foot in a matter of a few hours ?

I'd say we can't prove that Hutch went back from Romford on foot, and that you can't prove he COULDN'T, because statistics and overwhelming numbers of individual experiences tell he could, unless he was unfit/unhealthy, which evidence thereof YOU would have to bring forward, with all due respect.

Whatever mean he told the investigators he had used to come back from Romford, they believed him enough to let him accompany patrols to try to find the individual he had described to them.

In 2004 I participated to a memorial march tracing the path of BEF (British Expeditionary Forces) units during their fall back from Soissons to Villers-Cotterêts in late August 1914.

We were around 120 people, from all walks of life, both men and women, and at 35 at this time, I was among the youngest of the lot.
The only training 90% of the participants had was walking the dog around the block and searching for mushrooms in the nearby copse of wood.

We ended our march in Villers-Cotterêt around 5.30 or 6 pm, after a 13
miles journey, with an average temperature of 25-26°c during the march, and a noon rest of two hours.
To the astonishment of the organizers, who had foreseen some casualties
and a minibus to pick up stragglers, we didn't loose a single person !

I therefore stand to my point :

12 miles in a row can be walked by anyone who isn't suffering from illness/injury/dehydratation and though tiring, will not hamper an individual from resuming normal actions for the rest of the day/night.

In my parental experience, fatigue doesn't even prevent someone from feeling anger toward someone else, and brutality would be even more easily induced by such a physical situation.

[Rubyretro]

An aside Marc -do you live in France, too ?

[Marc]

Yes I do, dear Ruby :-)

[Rubyretro]

almost as mysterious as JtR -Where ? (Normandy ?)

[Marc]

Another reason why he wouldn't have mentioned it voluntarily if he had given it to Mary himself

Well done, but....why wouldn't he mention it ?
By fear of having his DNA traces tested ?

IF he knew there was a red handkerchief in MJK's room, for whatever reasons, it being MJK's own, Astrakan Man's or his, mentioning its existence through Astrakan Man present story made a more credible witness out of him.
If you're coming forward as a witness, don't you want to appear as credible
as possible ?

Doubtfull ? Yeah, I know, everything is doubtfull in this JtR mystery...we are not even 'sure' MJK was killed by JtR...so poor Hutchinson

[Marc]

almost as mysterious as JtR -Where ? (Normandy ?)

I can't tell, I had just came back from a 12 miles walk under the rain, saw some light on this board and thought it'd be fine to warm up a bit near a ... flaming debate

Seriously : Picardy

[Rubyretro]

(depuis combien de temps ?)

Otherwise, of course there must have been thousands of red handkerchiefs
sold all over London, and if you'd left yours in the room (and I agree, with no DNA testing available), to weave it into your story could only support that story.

I believe another witness of JtR mentioned a red handkerchief -was it Lawende ?