Romford to Millers court

[harry]

First off,if a witness has got to be believed,his information has to be checked and found to be accurate.In the whitechapel murders this would be even more so.Just one lie and a case is ruined.No one then or now has provenHutchinson's evidence of going to Romford and ba
ck to be truthful and sustainable.Fact.

You cannot equate what one man or group of men can do,as being proof that Hutchinson must be capable of the same performance.You do not have the data neccessary.You do not know his state of fitness or health.

He said he walked there and back a distance of some 24 miles,and continued to walk,except for a period of standing at Crossingham's,for a further period of time and distance.You cannot place him aboard any transport.You cannot gauge any rate of speed or progress or rest periods,because he didn't supply such.

It would be improbable that after such a journey he would not show some sign of physical or mental fatigue,yet his ability to memorise and recall such minute detail in his description of the Jewish male,seems to indicate he displayed none.

As one poster brought this up, the average intake of the S.A.S.is 125,of which only 10 will pass.115 will fail.On which group would he put Hutch.Where is the comparison.

[Rubyretro]

.No one then or now has provenHutchinson's evidence of going to Romford and ba
ck to be truthful and sustainable.Fact.

We do not know that Hutchinson's story of going to Romford was NOT proven at the time -so that is NOT a fact. Furthermore, unless you imagine that
Abberline et al were a complete bunch of incompetents, then we can imagine that they DID check out the last person to have seen Mary alive (in the
absence of A Man) -particularly as the Romford trip was the reason given for him being on the street at that hour.

You cannot equate what one man or group of men can do,as being proof that Hutchinson must be capable of the same performance.You do not have the data neccessary.You do not know his state of fitness or health.

If you can demonstrate that very many people Men, Women, of all ages
(who mentioned Retired people earlier ?) can do this walk -you can demonstrate that it was no miraculous feat for Hutch to have done it.
Unlike those Pensioners, he was a young man working as a labourer and doing such heavy work as humping beer barrels. That is a clear indication of his level of fitness.

He said he walked there and back a distance of some 24 miles,and continued to walk,except for a period of standing at Crossingham's,for a further period of time and distance.You cannot place him aboard any transport.You cannot gauge any rate of speed or progress or rest periods,because he didn't supply such.

I don't think that it makes any difference to us.

It would be improbable that after such a journey he would not show some sign of physical or mental fatigue,yet his ability to memorise and recall such minute detail in his description of the Jewish male,seems to indicate he displayed none.

S.A.S.is 125,of which only 10 will pass.115 will fail.On which group would he put Hutch.Where is the comparison.[/QUOTE]

Unless you want to put Marc & I, his Grandad and a group of rambling Pensioners in the SAS with Hutch -the fitness levels of the army elite has absolutely no bearing on the ability of ordinary people to walk long distances.
Don't compare what is not comparable.

[Marc]

marching distance

Well, for once there is a field on this board around which I can boast some expertise, based on personal experience AND study various primary sources.

In the conscripted armies of the late 1800's and early 1900's, 16 miles per day was considered a regular distance to be covered by infantrymen AND artillerymen (who were trained to walk along their guns limbers) while on march for several days.
It must be reminded that this distance was to be covered while carrying a 60 lbs kit, including backpack, ammunitions and individual weapon.

This concerned around 80% of the French and 55% of the German recruits (Germany conscripted fewer men, owing to its larger population) who had been selected as 'fit for service' at 20 after medical examination.

I'd suggest that anyone advocating that a late 1800's working class young man, particularly if coming from a rural background (German conscription privileged them upon city boys) couldn't walk 12 miles in a row and stay fit, should bring forward some evidence that the subject was different from the vast majority of his peers.

Hutch might have not been to Romford and back for various reasons, but based on physical means, saying he couldn't need further proof IMHO.
Saying he could only requires to take into account available statistical period data.

Before the issue is raised, I must add that conscripts needed training to walk 16 miles per day with a 60 lbs. kit, not to walk 16 miles alone, which any healthy individual in his 20's with fair shoes can do without particular training, something I witnessed personally while on duty in the army, 20 years ago.

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

Well, for once there is a field on this board around which I can boast some expertise, based on personal experience AND study various primary sources.

Your expertise is the army ? That is interesting.

Janie put forward the idea in another thread that JtR knew how to choke his victims silently and with minimum fuss, and someone else put forward the idea that this could mean that he had had some training (would a complete amateur know how to do that ?) -such as army training.

Hutchinson was described as having the look of a military man -so maybe he had been in the army.

As you know, I am very interested in Hutch the Groom -but horses were a huge army ressource at the time, so it stands to reason that either there were soldiers who worked with horses (and might find employment as a groom afterwards), and the army would employ grooms anyway.

If you take Toppy, aged 22, out of the equation, Hutch may have been older
(say around 30 even), and that leaves time in his past to have done different
jobs.

I think that army records would show George Hutchinson if he HAD been in the army.

Of course with no date of birth or particulars it would be hard to prove that it was THE Hutchinson -but if he'd been thrown out or exhibited any strange behaviour in the army, that might give a clue to someone worth investigating.

Like most people, I can't really believe that JtR had never exhibited any
unusual or devient behaviour before turning to murder and mutilation -although he must have had a 'first' murder. Like Corey, I think that is
probable that he began by mutilating animals (it is behaviour noted in other killers).

I think that 'our' Hutch probably (but not neccessarily) came from London, or the surrounding countryside -so regiments in that area would be a start.

How difficult would it be, Marc, to find an Army Hutch ??

[Rubyretro]

Cntd : Marc, my last question wasn't rhetorical -I really would like to know, and how to go about it...

...not saying that I would..and given that I have the luxury of time to waste,
but no money to spend on a wild goose chase such as this, although I enjoy treasure hunts.

[Robert]

I've heard of a killer injecting himself into a murder investigation. But to inject is hanky too, well, that takes a bit of swallowing.

If a red hanky was found at Room 13, it was very probably Mr A's.

[Marc]

JtR a former military ?

Well Ruby,

Yet an other subject for endless speculations

For centuries, army men have been 'trained' to kill sentries with as much discretion as can be for obvious reasons, but this kind of 'commando' training wasn't much practiced in regular units at least before WW1, because men were mainly supposed to fight in close order, and night combat was considered as a risky and mostly inefficient endeavour.

We might have something to knack around this however

'Kommando' is a word which originates in the Boer's war, when small parties of men would attack supply lines, isolated outposts, at night mostly, and more often than not after silencing sentries?
This kind of operations were initially a Boer's thing, but British troops were forced to adapt, and to imitate their foes, probably sooner than one would think at first glance.

I wouldn't be surprised that a man with an India army background would have had a similar set of knowledge, years before the Boer's war.

Now, to the point : how hard should it be to find an individual named Hutchinson in the army enlistment records ?
Probably too easy I'm affraid, since there might be a bunch of them !

From readings about the British army in the early 1900's, I guess the enlistment term was something like seven years.
A vast majority of men didn't re-enlisted after their first term, yet became 'active' reservists during their thirties.
Don't know the situation for the late 1880 though.
Could have JtR been an enlisted man at the time of the murders (took place on Week Ends only) or was he a former army man then, with some colonial background ?

I'd suggest you begin by contacting some veteran organization, asking how to find a man named Hutchinson, possibly enlisted in the 1880, in a London area regiment (infantry or cavalry) and having been posted overseas for some time.
However, it's clearly a case of finding a needle in a hay stack ! :-(

[Rubyretro]

HI Marc, thanks for your reply..

I see that the Army actually produce a booklet about how to go about this
(for people wishing to trace ancestors).

Also that the army were in Burma and Sudan (?).

Of course it's endless speculation, but nobody has managed to trace Hutch yet, and it just gets boring unless there are some breakthroughs !

If it's not possible to find the shadowy Hutch going backwards from 1888, then it's obligatory to start with a 'theory' to look for him elsewhere.

[Marc]

You're much welcome Ruby,
good luck with this thread ! ;-)

Yes, Burma, Sudan, Zulu Wars, these conflicts were what I was thinking of in term of 'colonial' background for JtR (though I wonder if at least Sudan wasn't later, this isn't my 'target period' which is pre-WW1)

[dixon9]

i believe its very hard to try and trace a solider that far back unless an officer,which by all accounts makes it a little easier

Dixon9
still learning

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
I am solid pro Hutchinson, being Topping , however I cant ignore the 'Military type' observations.
He walked 'Kind of Sharp' [Hutchinson]
Hutchinson... described as 'Military appearance.
Therefore the question must be asked.
'Did he invent Astracan, because he was in kellys room, in the early hours of the 9th, after walking back from Romford?
Did he leave a red Hanky in the room , and was pretrified that it could be traced to himself?
Was his statement down to fear of incrimination, even if he left kellys room just before the Victoria home opened, was he the man heard to leave the court around 6am?
All of this does not mean that he was the killer of Kelly, but would explain Astracan away..
Did he follow his own footsteps that night, and interpret them via Astracan.?
What would you all do, if you innocently met Mjk on Commerial street that morning [ mayby on a mission to get fish and chips] and suggested that you spent the rest of the night in her room, as a favour returned, but there was a slight hitch , she still had Blotchy as company, so after you escorted her back to the court, you still had to wait until he left, hence the sighting by Lewis..
Then you moved into her room, leaving at 6am to return to your lodgings, leaving your own hanky in there.
You were seen opposite the court, you had no alibi, and evn though you were innocent , having left Mary alive and well... what a dilemma....
What am I saying... am I still assuming Hutch was ok.?
Yes .
But a lingering doubt mayby..
Regards Richard.

[Marc]

i believe its very hard to try and trace a solider that far back unless an officer,which by all accounts makes it a little easier

Hi Dixon,
More than not being able to find details about Hutchinson (size, weight, colour of eyes, hair, etc...) which might be included in an enlistment record, I'm affraid Ruby is going to have a hard time sorting out which Hutchinson is the 'right' one !

[Marc]

Hi Richard,

You've knitted a very interesting and IMHO plausible story with our good ol' Hutch :-)

[jason_c]

I think that there are some things that we can assume though, Harry..

We can assume that the Police would have checked out the story of a man
lurking at the scene of a crime by his own admission. It has got to be suspicious, and I can't believe that they would've have just taken his word on everything and not verified what was possible to verify.

People must have been able to confirm the Romford story. He can't have been invisible looking for work, or working, or trekking along a busy main road.

Hutchinson was placing himself under the spotlight by coming forward as a
witness. It is very difficult to prove Astrakhan
Man existed (I think that he made it up) and it was nearly impossible to verify that (although the police seem to have rapidly discounted it).

I just can't believe that he lied about everything -he would surely have been arrested in the circumstances if EVERYTHING that he said was quickly shown to be a tissue of lies.

He could have just said that he had no money for a doss that night -he didn't need to elaborate on Romford.

If he worked as a labourer, or humping barrels in a pub (and given the sketch in the papers), we can assume that he was in good health -even muscle bound.

I've said before -personally, of all the witnesses, Hutch is the one that I believe the most.
I think that he was JtR, and I don't believe that he'd risk being hung by being caught out in a lie on an unimportant and verifiable detail. I think that he would only lie where it was necessary.[/QUOTE]



I agree with much of this.

[Rubyretro]

I'm affraid Ruby is going to have a hard time sorting out which Hutchinson is the 'right' one !

[/QUOTE]

It might actually be totally impossible..

But -I see that army records for the period contain detailed character reports
and reasons for discharge (maybe -if he was there, he did something to attract attention ?)

Sadly though, I'm afraid that if he HAD been out to the colonies, then he would have had opportunities for murder & mutilation (it is stated that in Burma, for instance, that the Army conducted 'overwhelming reprisals' against
villages which resisted -sounds like a euphemism for war crimes to me),
also one can imagine the soldiers frequenting prostitutes, and being rascist.
So he might have behaved very badly without attracting any particular attention anyway.

Anyway...this is totally off topic -I shall go away now..
I ordered the book on how to find soldiers, and shall have a go for 'fun', but I can't say that I'm banking on finding 'our' Hutch.