Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson?

[Sam Flynn]

Incidentally, there are at least two contemporary images of Bowyer and in both he has a dark line or shading on his cheek. They may just be meant to represent hollow cheeks, but his army record mentions a ‘liver mark’ on his cheek.

Oddly enough, both illustrations are rather in agreement about the nose, mouth, moustache and chin, albeit one (Illustrated Police News) is very much cruder than the other (Penny Illustrated). The latter, with which I'm most familiar, is a fine drawing by an evidently skilled artist.

[Fisherman]

Batman: Yet we have Swanson basically claiming a witness instantly identified someone as JtR and this is corroborated by Anderson.

In a sense, it is the other way around. Swanson is not as proven as Anderson to believe (or feign belief) in all of this.
The crux of the matter is that:
We donīt know who the witness was
We donīt know who the suspect was (other than that Swanson calls him Kosminski)
We donīt know what the identification fixed. It could have been just about anything.

It seems to reject/accept Hutchinson, is either way based on a lack of information we are not privy too or has been lost.

Very true. And lost information can never be good evidence.

Hutchinson physical description of JtR is not too dissimilar to the others.

5 ft 6in, Slight moustache, 34-35

True.

Wouldn't surprise me if the handkerchief he gave her was his knife swiping cloth.

It would surprise me, though, since I believe it happened the day before the murder. So snot is more likely than blood on that handkerchief.

The only thing standing out about him is his clothes. Which as we have said, can be explained by the Ripper altering his appearance, something which I think investigators knew all too well could happen when their witness statements appeared in the media.

Could? Yes. But just how likely is it that the Ripper would choose to imitate a christmas tree?

[Fisherman]

Incidentally, there are at least two contemporary images of Bowyer and in both he has a dark line or shading on his cheek. They may just be meant to represent hollow cheeks, but his army record mentions a ‘liver mark’ on his cheek.

Which would have another implication than hollow cheeks. Thanks for that, an interesting observation.

[Fisherman]

He was invalided out of the army in 1886, aged 37, suffering from Bright’s disease. He’d also contracted syphilis and suffered from fever and other ailments while in the army, so he may have looked older than his age in 1888.

Very much agreed, yes. Sickness will often enough do that to you.

[Fisherman]

I don't think it was a petty accusation at all. It should be obvious to anyone that getting Hutchinson and Astrakhan out of the way leaves the door wide open for other suspects. Or, mutatis mutandis, that Hutchinson's being correct about the date makes it more difficult to put another suspect in Miller's Court.

More difficult? I dunno. I think there are hours on end left to allow for another killer. And Hutchinson was there at between 2.15 and 3 AM, roughly, whereas Lechmere - if the killer - seems to have arrived at a later stage.
So I am having no problems at all with Topping, Gareth. Never did.

And it WAS a petty accusation, I know then when I see them.

[Batman]

Doesnīt it say that nobody got a "good look" at the killer? Like how Lawende saw his man (who need NOT be the killer to begin with) and his face, but not good enough to be able to recognize him.

It must be understood that the police were grasping at straws. Whatever possibility they had, they would likely take it, perhaps including identifications made by people who had said that they would probably not recognize somebody.

Yet we have Swanson basically claiming a witness instantly identified someone as JtR and this is corroborated by Anderson.

It seems to reject/accept Hutchinson, is either way based on a lack of information we are not privy too or has been lost.

Hutchinson physical description of JtR is not too dissimilar to the others.

5 ft 6in, Slight moustache, 34-35

Wouldn't surprise me if the handkerchief he gave her was his knife swiping cloth.

The only thing standing out about him is his clothes. Which as we have said, can be explained by the Ripper altering his appearance, something which I think investigators knew all too well could happen when their witness statements appeared in the media.

[MrBarnett]

Incidentally, there are at least two contemporary images of Bowyer and in both he has a dark line or shading on his cheek. They may just be meant to represent hollow cheeks, but his army record mentions a ‘liver mark’ on his cheek.

[MrBarnett]

Thanks, Gary! So he was 39 in 1888? Not all that much, I dare say. Then again, if he perished in 1889 from Brightīs disease, he may not have looked all that sprightly in 88...

He was invalided out of the army in 1886, aged 37, suffering from Bright’s disease. He’d also contracted syphilis and suffered from fever and other ailments while in the army, so he may have looked older than his age in 1888.

[Sam Flynn]

You see, if we are to lower ourselves into the bog of petty accusations, we are going to have to take that swim side by side.

I don't think it was a petty accusation at all. It should be obvious to anyone that getting Hutchinson and Astrakhan out of the way leaves the door wide open for other suspects. Or, mutatis mutandis, that Hutchinson's being correct about the date makes it more difficult to put another suspect in Miller's Court.

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn
The papers said he was a youth? Don't think so.

Some did. Thatīs what it says on the Bowyer page out here on Casebook - the one I quoted earlier.

Anyway, he wasn't a youth, so Dew was wrong. Categorically so.There are more facts that can be checked and proven wrong.

He was not a youth, but we cannot ask of people to be able to always notice that. It is the impression we get that counts. It is a common thing that we get such things wrong.
Yes, there are facts that are not correct in Dews book, but they are few and far between compared to how he gets just about all the rest right.

Let's face it, you need Dew to be trustworthy so that you can get both Astrakhan Man and Hutchinson out of the way to make room for you-know-who.

Haha! You are a funny man, Gareth! I never wanted Astrakhan man or Hutchinson out of the way. Anybody who suggests Hutchinson is comparable to Lechmere is factually shipwrecked, and that is quite enough for me. He does not stand up to the carman on any level, as I have pointed out numerous times.
But it is interesting how you look upon me as a complete maniac, I must say. And that is against - for example - the backdrop of you saying that it is a near certainty that the torso man lived in the west - as if you are hellbent on never accepting a common originator for the two series.

You see, if we are to lower ourselves into the bog of petty accusations, we are going to have to take that swim side by side.

[Sam Flynn]

Yup, he does. If that was him and if the likeness was a good one.

Are we looking at the same illustration? The one I have in mind makes Bowyer look like a ravaged scarecrow.

Besides, he categorically wasn't a youth!!!. Dew was wrong.

[Fisherman]

But not a youth by any stretch of the imagination, and he certainly looks well-worn in the one contemporary illustration we have of him.

Yup, he does. If that was him and if the likeness was a good one. It is a drawing, not a photo, Gareth. And - once again - it was not just Dew who called him a youth, so there is something going on here that we do not fully understand, Iīd say.

And - again - it does not undermine how Dew is likely to be correct on Hutchinson.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam Flynn: Indeed, but I don't buy such excuses. Bowyer was reported as being a servant in McCarthy's shop, and my guess is that Dew heard/read about this and assumed that Bowyer was some kind of shop assistant or errand-boy. If, as he claimed, he'd been at the station with Inspr Reid when Bowyer arrived, and had actually accompanied him to Miller's Court, he'd have known better.

Your ... guess?

Informed and reasoned opinion.

No pensioned soldier who'd served time in India would have been a "young fellow", and what contemporary illustrations of Bowyer we have show him as full-moustached and distinctly middle-aged.

If the likeness is good and if it really IS Bowyer on the drawing, then yes, he looks nothing like youthful. But we have Gary Barnett saying that it seems he may have been 39 at the time, which is not very old, and we have papers and Dew alike saying that he was a youth, so there can be no certainty.

The papers said he was a youth? Don't think so. Anyway, he wasn't a youth, so Dew was wrong.

At the end of the day, we can all see that the facts in Dews book that can be checked are almost always correct, and so there is every reason to trust him on the Hutchinson matter.

There are more facts that can be checked and proven wrong.

Let's face it, you need Dew to be trustworthy so that you can get both Astrakhan Man and Hutchinson out of the way to make room for you-know-who. Well, Dew isn't trustworthy in connection with the Ripper case, and demonstrably so.

[Fisherman]

I have referenced Begg's references but the point is this. Someone was being used to ID JtR. Meaning obviously claims about witnesses not seeing his face and only from the rear or not at all, can't be right, can they?

Doesnīt it say that nobody got a "good look" at the killer? Like how Lawende saw his man (who need NOT be the killer to begin with) and his face, but not good enough to be able to recognize him.

It must be understood that the police were grasping at straws. Whatever possibility they had, they would likely take it, perhaps including identifications made by people who had said that they would probably not recognize somebody.

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn: Indeed, but I don't buy such excuses. Bowyer was reported as being a servant in McCarthy's shop, and my guess is that Dew heard/read about this and assumed that Bowyer was some kind of shop assistant or errand-boy. If, as he claimed, he'd been at the station with Inspr Reid when Bowyer arrived, and had actually accompanied him to Miller's Court, he'd have known better.

Your ... guess? I see. Well, much as it is possible, it remains a guess only. And I believe that Dew would not want to run the risk as being exposed as a liar. Letīs not forget that he may have been at the station but did not actually see the man who brought the news - that too is a possibility. One of many, I dare say.

No pensioned soldier who'd served time in India would have been a "young fellow", and what contemporary illustrations of Bowyer we have show him as full-moustached and distinctly middle-aged.

If the likeness is good and if it really IS Bowyer on the drawing, then yes, he looks nothing like youthful. But we have Gary Barnett saying that it seems he may have been 39 at the time, which is not very old, and we have papers and Dew alike saying that he was a youth, so there can be no certainty.

Was he? I think his memoirs clearly exaggerate his involvement in the Kelly case to the extent that I'm inclined not to trust them at all.

Yes, you guess that was what happened. Then again you also guess that the torso killer must have lived in West London, right?

Well, we know he wasn't telling the truth about Bowyer.

We actually donīt, thatīs the whole point. There is a lot speaking for you being correct, but there is actually material to the contrary too.
At the end of the day, we can all see that the facts in Dews book that can be checked are almost always correct, and so there is every reason to trust him on the Hutchinson matter.