Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson?

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, Gary! So he was 39 in 1888? Not all that much, I dare say.

But not a youth by any stretch of the imagination, and he certainly looks well-worn in the one contemporary illustration we have of him.

[Michael W Richards]

Finally, there is of course the matter of how we should accept that a man like Dew is telling the truth until we can prove the contrary.

I believe we have Dews description of what he saw in room 13 to use as a reason to pause when accepting Dew verbatim.

[Batman]

I am going to need that source for the Sadler ID being made by Lawende. Is there a conclusive such source?

I have referenced Begg's references but the point is this. Someone was being used to ID JtR. Meaning obviously claims about witnesses not seeing his face and only from the rear or not at all, can't be right, can they?

[Fisherman]

Fish,

We did some work on Bowyer over on JTRForums. Debs found an army record for a very likely candidate who had spent much of his military career in India.

I obtained a copy of his death cert:

Death Certificate of Thomas Bowyer:

When/where: 22/4/1889 4, The Polygon (Clapham)

Name: Thomas Bowyer

Sex: Male

Age: 40 years

Occupation: Army pensioner late of the Field Artillery

Cause: Bright's disease exhaustion

Informant: Annie Bowyer, Widow, 4, The Polygon

His military service in India:

25/11/68 - 20/12/73
9/2/75 - 10/12/78
11/12/78 - 1/1/80 (Afghanistan)
2/1/80 - 8/3/85
9/3/85 - 20/4/85

Thanks, Gary! So he was 39 in 1888? Not all that much, I dare say. Then again, if he perished in 1889 from Bright´s disease, he may not have looked all that sprightly in 88...

[Batman]

I'm not sure, because I haven't been able to find the press report that tells of the attempted Sadler identification.

Apparently, the source is Daily Telegraph, 18 Feb 1891.

It refers to the person who saw a couple at the corner of the passage leading into Mitre-Square.

Footnotes 81 and 82 in Begg's The Facts.

[Fisherman]

Batman: Lawende was used to try and identify Sadler as JtR. That pretty much establishes that he was being used by investigators as a JtR witness.

Is that a proven thing? It is suggested as a possibility in my A to Z. Whichever, it does not exclude that other witnesses may have been tried before, and so we cannot say that Swanson must have spoken of Lawende. And keep in mind that he said that he did not think that he would be able to recognize the man he had seen in Dukes passage, meaning that he would be shredded by any lawyer worth his salt.

Therefore there is good evidence to suggest that Swanson was referring to the same witness but we don't even have to bring up Swanson and Kozminski to establish that Lawende is used to identify JtR because of Sadler.

There is a possibility, not good evidence.

That Sadler connection to Lawende identification means these ideas that JtR had not been seen or that Hutchinson must be ruled out because he describes a face and not the back, have to be dismissed as not good reasons.

I am going to need that source for the Sadler ID being made by Lawende. Is there a conclusive such source?

[Sam Flynn]

That means there is a conflict between officials claiming no one saw JtR or only saw his back and not his face

Indeed, which is odd considering that more than one witness, Lawende included, was able to note their suspects' hair (facial or otherwise) and/or complexion.

and the fact investigators had someone being used to look at ripper candidates.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did but, if so, then chances are they'd have used a witness with a fixed address, like Lawende or Schwartz, as opposed to a dosser like Hutchinson, who was unlikely to have been easily traceable in the 1890s when the attempted IDs of Sadler and Kozminski would potentially have occurred.

That said, I can't recall any official record that these ID attempts really did happen.

[Sam Flynn]

Could be Hutchinson also?

I'm not sure, because I haven't been able to find the press report that tells of the attempted Sadler identification.

[Batman]

Anyway, I think you get the point. Someone was doing identification rounds. That means there is a conflict between officials claiming no one saw JtR or only saw his back and not his face and the fact investigators had someone being used to look at ripper candidates.

[Batman]

Possibly, but it's not certain that he was.

Could be Hutchinson also?

[MrBarnett]

Indeed, but I don't buy such excuses. Bowyer was reported as being a servant in McCarthy's shop, and my guess is that Dew heard/read about this and assumed that Bowyer was some kind of shop assistant or errand-boy. If, as he claimed, he'd been at the station with Inspr Reid when Bowyer arrived, and had actually accompanied him to Miller's Court, he'd have known better.No pensioned soldier who'd served time in India would have been a "young fellow", and what contemporary illustrations of Bowyer we have show him as full-moustached and distinctly middle-aged.Was he? I think his memoirs clearly exaggerate his involvement in the Kelly case to the extent that I'm inclined not to trust them at all.
Well, we know he wasn't telling the truth about Bowyer.

In Dorset Street parlance, the term shopman/assistant may well have been a euphemism for minder, as the following examples suggest:

1881

Daniel McCarthy/19/shopman
Henry Buckley/24/shopman

1901

William Maher/24/shop assistant
James Sullivan/18/shop assistant
George Burke/19/shop assistant

Some heavy dudes there. Bowyer was seemingly somewhat older and possibly not in the best of health in 1888.

[Sam Flynn]

Lawende was used to try and identify Sadler as JtR.

Possibly, but it's not certain that he was.

[Batman]

Nope. A not named witness identified Kosminski, and Swanson certainly did not name Lawende (with an "a") as that witness. Furthermore, Lawende stated that he did not think that he would be able to recognize the man he had seen in Dukes Passage if he got to see him again, meaning that no real value could have been ascribed to whatever identification of the man he was asked to do in retrospect.

If we want "Kosminski" to carry value as a suspect, we must identify another identifier, one who was dead certain on account of having made an observation of the actual killer and not somebody who was sighted in close proximity to a murder site.

So we can´t do that, I´m afraid; we can´t attribute any factually based value to Kosminski as a suspect.

Lawende was used to try and identify Sadler as JtR. That pretty much establishes that he was being used by investigators as a JtR witness.

Therefore there is good evidence to suggest that Swanson was referring to the same witness but we don't even have to bring up Swanson and Kozminski to establish that Lawende is used to identify JtR because of Sadler.

That Sadler connection to Lawende identification means these ideas that JtR had not been seen or that Hutchinson must be ruled out because he describes a face and not the back, have to be dismissed as not good reasons.

[MrBarnett]

Dew also has crowds screaming ‘Jack the Ripper’ at Squibby in early September.

[Sam Flynn]

There hav been suggestions in the past that a boy may have been involved, running ahead of McCarthy and Bowyer.

Indeed, but I don't buy such excuses. Bowyer was reported as being a servant in McCarthy's shop, and my guess is that Dew heard/read about this and assumed that Bowyer was some kind of shop assistant or errand-boy. If, as he claimed, he'd been at the station with Inspr Reid when Bowyer arrived, and had actually accompanied him to Miller's Court, he'd have known better.

And much as Bowyer was described as a pensioner from the Indian army, it is not a given how old he was.

No pensioned soldier who'd served time in India would have been a "young fellow", and what contemporary illustrations of Bowyer we have show him as full-moustached and distinctly middle-aged.

All in all, that makes quite a good case for Dew - who was there when Hutchinson surfaced

Was he? I think his memoirs clearly exaggerate his involvement in the Kelly case to the extent that I'm inclined not to trust them at all.

Finally, there is of course the matter of how we should accept that a man like Dew is telling the truth until we can prove the contrary.

Well, we know he wasn't telling the truth about Bowyer.