Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson?

[Batman]

You demonstrated that some people took something. But some people is not everyone and something isn't "anything".

What was demonstrated is that your claim 'you don't take anything' is contradicted by locals taking something. It can be anything to contradict that. In this instance, it's a plate.

What this does is question the idea that you were able to get your meal wrapped up as nicely as you have had it in modern times. If that were the case then there would be no need for plates. Obviously, the conclusion here is that plates were preferable to whatever they were giving food out in. Meaning can't be as good as you had it.

If you want to buy fish and chips (dressed in your astrakhan coat with gold watch and horseshoe tiepin, naturally) you might take a plate.

Not if you were coming back from a club/pub for example. You don't bring your plates with you then.

or possibly your own paper (why, I don't know),

Doubtful, but a strap is easy to have on you if you plan to go home with a hot bundle of food in paper.

but you don't take a sheet of oilcloth and,

As you said yourself they may have been using any old sheet/paper and this I don't disagree with. However look at what you are saying. That an oily parcel can't be mistaken for oilcloth. Furthermore, oilcloth is primarily to prevent leakage/absorbing moisture. Bread cloth for sandwiches is another cloth used to wrap food back then.

regardless of what the food is wrapped in, you don't secure it with a strap. The idea is ridiculous.

Demonstrably incorrect. Across the European continent, there are countless examples of modern strap boxes used to carry lunches. Before the advent of plastics, this would have been makeshift.

Also cold foods such as deserts can also be wrapped and carried this way.

No barrier at all.

[Abby Normal]

are we really debating if Aman had fish and chips in his parcel thingy? lol

obviously hutch wanted to give the impression mr Aman was carrying knives in it.

[Jon Guy]

Scenes in History that Never Happened, #83:

"Where are you going, darling?"

"I'm off to buy some rancid fried food from a poor man's chandler's shop in Thrawl Street. Don't worry, I've got my chip-strap ready this time."

"Well don't forget your gold watch chain, silver tiepin and astrakhan coat. You'd better take this sheet of oilcloth, too, in case they've run out of paper."

Funny
Pythonesque even ..

[Batman]

obviously hutch wanted to give the impression mr Aman was carrying knives in it.

That's the impression you get from reading it. He doesn't say he suspects knives in there in his original statement.

If he wanted to imply knives, why not a medical bag for extra drama? Why not copy what others had said in the press about men carrying bags?

Instead, we get a late night parcel tied up and MJK with fish and potatoes not yet fully digested in her stomach contents and intestines.

Obviously, there are people here who get that nobody is keeping fish and chips on ice at home and that there are no reports for recent cooking in MJKs room.

MJK had fish and potatoes.

Someone likely brought that home. Maybe it was her... yet where are witnesses to this?

Nowhere to our knowledge.

Is it a stretch to think JtR brought her the food?

I don't think so.

May Hutchinson have spotted a packaged supper?

Maybe he did and that's something those who reject Hutchinson can't have happen...

... yet even then are still having to explain the fish and potato evidence.

[Abby Normal]

That's the impression you get from reading it. He doesn't say he suspects knives in there in his original statement.

If he wanted to imply knives, why not a medical bag for extra drama? Why not copy what others had said in the press about men carrying bags?

Instead, we get a late night parcel tied up and MJK with fish and potatoes not yet fully digested in her stomach contents and intestines.

Obviously, there are people here who get that nobody is keeping fish and chips on ice at home and that there are no reports for recent cooking in MJKs room.

MJK had fish and potatoes.

Someone likely brought that home. Maybe it was her... yet where are witnesses to this?

Nowhere to our knowledge.

Is it a stretch to think JtR brought her the food?

I don't think so.

May Hutchinson have spotted a packaged supper?

Maybe he did and that's something those who reject Hutchinson can't have happen...

... yet even then are still having to explain the fish and potato evidence.

she probably got the fish and potatoes from blotchy.

hutch may have gotten bad potatoes, like scrooge, causing his vision of Aman.

[Batman]

she probably got the fish and potatoes from blotchy.

hutch may have gotten bad potatoes, like scrooge, causing his vision of Aman.

Fish and chips in a beer can - no problem acceptable.

Fish and chips wrapped in an oily parcel - heresy!

[Wickerman]

Who fried the fish at that time in the morning?

Let's not lose sight of the stupidity we are challenging.

I wasn't responding to the question, "where did she get her fish n chips?'. I don't think for a minute McCarthy served up fish & chips, but other establishments better equipped to do so did, and eateries were open late into the morning.
Not forgetting Whitechapel High Street was packed with hot & cold food stalls till all hours of the night.

Remember, Dr Bond only said "fish & potatoes", so her meal could just as easily have been boiled fish & a baked potato.

[Wickerman]

If astracan was carrying a fish and potato supper with him, he must have bought it before he met Mary.
That means it must have been for his own consumption. Following on from that and he did buy the meal somewhere near or on Thrawl St it probably means that he lived nearby. Would you walk miles for your supper if Chandlers shops were open that late?
So it means he was local.
Yet astracan was not found despite Hutchinson's very detailed description of him.
I would expect him to have been, even if he was just eliminated from police enquires and Dew making mention of it. But no the man was never traced even if he had done a bunk.
No trace, probably no suspect.

Be honest, if that was you would you go out again dressed like that?
There was likely a noticeable lack of Jewish men wearing Astrachan coats for the next few weeks.

[Sam Flynn]

Fish and chips in a beer can - no problem acceptable.

Who's saying he put the food in the can? He might have, but nobody's mandating that possibility. Alternatively, there was nothing stopping Mr Blotchy from nipping out to get food for them both after they reached Miller's Court, nor from buying it for Mary just before they arrived. Maybe they'd had a few drinks in a pub earlier that evening, and buying some food to eat on the way home would seem a plausible thing to do.

Fish and chips wrapped in an oily parcel - heresy!

Despite the name, oilcloth wasn't oily - a fabric was typically impregnated with linseed oil in order to make it waterproof, flexible and durable. It was the nearest thing to plastic or faux leather available at the time. If you had a case or bag made of oilcloth, you surely wouldn't spoil it by carrying two stinky portions of cod and chips around in it. You might use it to keep a set of knives clean and dry, however.

[Batman]

Who's saying he put the food in the can? He might have, but nobody's mandating that possibility. Alternatively, there was nothing stopping Mr Blotchy from nipping out to get food for them both after they reached Miller's Court, nor from buying it for Mary just before they arrived. Maybe they'd had a few drinks in a pub earlier that evening, and buying some food to eat on the way home would seem a plausible thing to do.

You see here, the beer can might not hold beer. You are allowing for food to be in it. A beer can carrying food.

Notice I have not objected to this point.

Despite the name, oilcloth wasn't oily - a fabric was typically impregnated with linseed oil in order to make it waterproof, flexible and durable. It was the nearest thing to plastic or faux leather available at the time. If you had a case or bag made of oilcloth, you surely wouldn't spoil it by carrying two stinky portions of cod and chips around in it. You might use it to keep a set of knives clean and dry, however.

Oilcloth has a sheen to it. So does oily paper.

There is no point to parceling knives. That makes no sense if you are JtR. None at all.

Hutchinson just described a parcel.

Adding knives to it is subjective input.

So Fish n Chips in a beer pot, no problem apparently.

Fish n Chips wrapped in oily paper/cloth, big problem, apparently.

As I said, I suspect it wasn't cloth at all but greasy paper from fish and potatoes.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Be honest, if that was you would you go out again dressed like that?
There was likely a noticeable lack of Jewish men wearing Astrachan coats for the next few weeks.

Hi Wick, I take your point but people who knew astracan would probably know he dressed like that or at least he had some of that attire. He could have bought the whole outfit recently I suppose but unlikely.
A man living in or around Thrawl st would have had to have a pretty good job to buy that outfit all at once, gold chain and all
Also, Description age about 34 or 35. height 5ft6 complexion pale, dark eyes and eye lashes slight moustache, curled up each end, and hair dark Jewish appearance. Again I would suppose a few of the Jewish population looked like that but putting it with his clothing etc would narrow the field considerably.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Alcohol can slow the digestion of food considerably and since Mary was likely very drunk and the fact that complex carbohydrates take longer to digest, [potatoes] are we even sure when she ate the meal?

[Simon Wood]

I don't recall Hutchinson mentioning the bullseye on the back of Mr. Astrakhan's long dark coat.

Mr. A. was a mugger's wet dream.

[rjpalmer]

These pewter beer cans were taken home from the pub and then left out on the doorstep. In the morning, the publican or the publican's boy would make the rounds and pick them up, like so many empty milk bottles. An account of this procedure was alluded to during a murder case in Richmond in 1879 that involved the landlord of the Rising Sun P.H. among other sources.

[Batman]

A logical order of events would be that Lawende's sailor description hit home and therefore clerk, shabby and sailor are no longer good ideas for JtR. Obviously, the alternative is to go in the other direction. Not a clerk, not shabby and not a sailor.

So in this respect, Hutchinson comes across as being more in kilter with a hypothesis that JtR changed up his appearance because of witness description.

This means the appearance seen by Hutchinson is not JtR's 'regular' appearance.

Up until Kelly we have a JtR that is blending in well. Yet with Kelly we see a man dressed up for something.

JtR obviously considered himself invincible. The public couldn't stop him. The police couldn't stop him. He wanted to demonstrate he had that power over everybody. Impulses he likely acted on while seeking a need to basically get more violent postmortem with his targets.

To this extent, a man dressed as he was, as dangerous as he was, would have no problem walking Whitechapel at night. He wasn't fearing running into someone with a knife. He was the fear, with the knife.