Jack the Ripper is an extremely rare serial killer

[Sam Flynn]

But surely you can recognise the difference in murdering random prostitutes on the street, to murdering one's own spouse in the home?

Oh, absolutely; it's yet another difference between the Ripper's MO and what Bury did. I didn't intend to list them all.

But he's the only suspect who's a proven killer with a "Ripper-esque" signature, who lived in the East End during the murders. That puts him in a league of his own.

I'd challenge the Ripper-esque bit, if only to say that it's very "esque" if it is. As to his being in a league of his own, I'd agree - but only in terms of named suspects. There were thousands of other men living in the East End, many of them in closer proximity to Spitalfields/Whitechapel, with potential to be the Ripper.

[Harry D]

Oh, absolutely; it's yet another difference between the Ripper's MO and what Bury did. I didn't intend to list them all.I'd challenge the Ripper-esque bit, if only to say that it's very "esque" if it is.

So, the circumstances of Ellen's murder can't really be used to discredit Bury as a suspect. The Ripper never had to worry about covering up a murder before, since his victims were all murdered on the streets or in their own homes. Now, you might question why Bury didn't go on the run. That's a valid question whether he was a serial killer or not. After all, William Waddell legged it after Jane Beadmore's murder, and he wasn't the Ripper. I think it says a lot about Bury's state of mind at the time. He didn't have any money left, he had no where to run, and no one left in his life. Incidentally, they say that a lot of serial killers end up gimping themselves out of a subconscious desire to be stopped. Going to the police station to brazen out his wife's murder as a "accident" might have been such a moment.

As to his being in a league of his own, I'd agree - but only in terms of named suspects. There were thousands of other men living in the East End, many of them in closer proximity to Spitalfields/Whitechapel, with potential to be the Ripper.

No argument there.

[Abby Normal]

If Ellen's murder had been in London, bury would have probably gone down as the ripper in most people's minds.

[Elamarna]

I disagree Steve if Jack is a rare serial killer than a killer who killed his ex-prostitute wife in a similar manner to the C5 must be seen as the leading candidate when compared to the rest.

They are similar it that there are cuts to the abdomen but the similarities are to my way of thinking superficial.
He is stronger than many, but not the strongest at all.

We disagree, and that fine, I respect your views and understand your thinking John.

Steve

[John G]

They are similar it that there are cuts to the abdomen but the similarities are to my way of thinking superficial.
He is stronger than many, but not the strongest at all.

We disagree, and that fine, I respect your views and understand your thinking John.

Steve

Hi Steve,

But the same argument surely applies to Alice Mackenzie-and Stride, Tabram and Coles weren't mutilated at all-and they're are plenty of people on here who believe she was a JtR victim. And if she wasn't, then there must have been at least one other killer, active in Whitechapel, who was capable of carrying out a Ripper-like murder, which creates all sorts of problems for the single killer theory.

[Sam Flynn]

We need to be very precise when we talk about "Ripper like" murders, I feel.

[Harry D]

They are similar it that there are cuts to the abdomen but the similarities are to my way of thinking superficial.
He is stronger than many, but not the strongest at all.

We disagree, and that fine, I respect your views and understand your thinking John.

Steve

What named suspect is stronger than Bury?

[Michael W Richards]

We need to be very precise when we talk about "Ripper like" murders, I feel.

Evidence suggesting Victim approached by stranger, evidence of probable choking or strangulation to subdue, deep double cuts to the throat followed by abdominal mutilations.

Technically that could only apply to 3 Canonicals. Marys outrageous murder goes far beyond any of the prior mutilations, but it doesnt have the "beats" that I suggested above.

[Harry D]

If Ellen's murder had been in London, bury would have probably gone down as the ripper in most people's minds.

Good point, Abby.

I wonder if Scotland Yard would've taken Bury more seriously as a suspect had Ellen's murder occurred on their doorstep?

[Elamarna]

What named suspect is stronger than Bury?

Harry this is where it's down to subject views is it not.

I see the naming of Kosminski by 3 senior officers to be of great significance.
It should also be noted that the theory was known by Littlefield, who says Anderson only thought he knew,

You see the wounds to Burys wife has being significant, I honest do not, I see superficial similarities that's all.

We disagree, and that's fine. Without real evidence, of which there is none, it's impossible to say anyone is probably the killer, but some are nearer the cross over from possible to probable than others.
I put Bury in the higher possibles

All the best

Steve

[Herlock Sholmes]

Harry this is where it's down to subject views is it not.

I see the naming of Kosminski by 3 senior officers to be of great significance.
It should also be noted that the theory was known by Littlefield, who says Anderson only thought he knew,

You see the wounds to Burys wife has being significant, I honest do not, I see superficial similarities that's all.

We disagree, and that's fine. Without real evidence, of which there is none, it's impossible to say anyone is probably the killer, but some are nearer the cross over from possible to probable than others.
I put Bury in the higher possibles

All the best

Steve

Hi Steve,

I have to agree. We have to put Bury at the 'top table' of Ripper suspects because he was an 'actual' murderer who used a knife to kill his wife in a particularly vicious way. He used prostitutes and was so situated to be within easy assess of the Whitechapel area.
I also think that the words of senior police officers at the time are often too easily dismissed (usually by authors with different suspects.) Kosminski is the suspect that won't go away. The lunatic eating bread from the gutter whilst hearing voices is not an image that fits our mental picture of the killer. But, as we discussed on Thursday (admittedly in The Ten Bells ) a confusion over his identity could have occurred. Perhaps he had more 'lucid' periods where he could interact with people. Let's face it, he wouldn't have needed to be quoting Byron to charm an East End prostitute down a back alley!
It's difficult to casually dismiss a senior police officer at the heart of the investigation saying that Kosminski was identified as the ripper (or at least as a suspect seen with a victim at the correct time and place.)

[Sam Flynn]

We have to put Bury at the 'top table' of Ripper suspects because he was an 'actual' murderer who used a knife to kill his wife in a particularly vicious way.

He actually used a rope to kill his wife - an important detail.

[Harry D]

Thanks for you response, Elamarna.

Harry this is where it's down to subject views is it not.

I'd beg to differ here, actually.

The only reason I regard Bury as the best suspect is down to verifiable and empirical facts. He was a killer who had a similar signature to the Ripper. He inflicted post-mortem injuries on his victim, targetting the abdomen and sexual organs. Furthermore, he can be placed in the East End during the Ripper scare and he left not long after the last 'canonical' victim. Objectively speaking, that puts him head and shoulders above any other named suspect.

Kosminski was referred to by several senior policeman, and possibly was identified by a witness, but there is still no proof that he was anything other than a local loony.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks for you response, Elamarna.



I'd beg to differ here, actually.

The only reason I regard Bury as the best suspect is down to verifiable and empirical facts. He was a killer who had a similar signature to the Ripper. He inflicted post-mortem injuries on his victim, targetting the abdomen and sexual organs. Furthermore, he can be placed in the East End during the Ripper scare and he left not long after the last 'canonical' victim. Objectively speaking, that puts him head and shoulders above any other named suspect.

Kosminski was referred to by several senior policeman, and possibly was identified by a witness, but there is still no proof that he was anything other than a local loony.

I agree with this. I have bury ahead of koz, but both are in my top tier of valid suspects after hutch and blotchy.

Post mortem mtulilation is rare in serial killers, and both bury and the ripper targeted the abdomen.

If it wasn't for Mackenzie bury would probably be my favorite, or at least tied with hutch.

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Harry

The only reason I regard Bury as the best suspect is down to verifiable and empirical facts. He was a killer who had a similar signature to the Ripper. He inflicted post-mortem injuries on his victim, targetting the abdomen and sexual organs.

Bury strangled his wife with a rope, and this was the cause of her death; her neck was otherwise unscathed. This is distinctly different to the Ripper's signature in itself, even before we consider the reality of the knife-wounds.

As to those, he seems to have inflicted at least two superficial thoracic cuts with a knife, starting at around level of the fifth rib and moving towards the abdomen. There were short, superficial cuts to the abdomen proper, with just one wound, of about 4 inches, which penetrated the abdominal wall sufficient to allow the intestines to bulge out. This one deep wound aside, it looks to me that, far from "ripping", Bury did something more akin to scoring the skin, as one might do when preparing a joint of pork for roasting. Even the one penetrating wound was extremely modest by the Ripper's standards, and all the other wounds appear to have been of a somewhat tentative nature. Not, I'd suggest, like our Jacky's style in any meaningful sense.

Furthermore, he can be placed in the East End during the Ripper scare and he left not long after the last 'canonical' victim. Objectively speaking, that puts him head and shoulders above any other named suspect.

Indeed, but the East End was a large, densely populated area. Strictly speaking, whilst Bury can be placed in the eastern part of the East End, all the canonical Ripper murders happened in the western part. There would have been plenty of potential victims closer to Bury's home, yet not a single canonical Ripper murder happened further east than Bucks Row.