Jack the Ripper is an extremely rare serial killer

[Herlock Sholmes]

interesting take-never thought of that.

what is the accent?

It's a West Midlands accent (known as The Black Country due to what it was like during the Industrial Revolution.) Apparently when Queen Victoria used to pass in a train she'd have the curtains of her carriage drawn because it looked so horrible! It's changed......a bit!

In a car, I'm about 20-30 minutes from Wolverhampton (Eddowes) and Stourbridge (Bury.)

I even had a thought about the name Frank Carter on the pawn ticket in Eddowes possession but I think that someone found the 'actual' Carter so I think that little 'suggestion' has to be dumped!

[Observer]

Possibly, but if any Whitechapel murder was a copycat, it was hers.

And by 'copycat' I simply mean an imitation, motives unknown.

Do you think it possible that Bury attempted to imitate JTR?

[Sam Flynn]

I can't recall if I mentioned it on here or the JTR Forum fairly recently but I've always wondered if Bury knew Eddowes? We have no possible way of knowing though. I just thought that if they had been in the same pub at the same time (which isn't particularly unlikely)

I'd say it was very unlikely. Bury lived in a different part of the East End and almost certainly frequented different pubs. He was a decade or so younger than Eddowes, and had lived in London for less than a year before Eddowes was killed. The chances of their paths crossing was rather remote.

PS: Don't knock your accent; I think it's one of the most musical in the British Isles

[Abby Normal]

Hi AN

There are those who believe that Bury was JTR, thus they rule out McKenzie, they have to. The thing is though McKenzies murder was far more consistent with a Ripper kill than Ellen Bury's were. Also, McKenzie was murdered slap bang in the middle of JTR territory. I also believe McKenzie was a Ripper victim, thus ruling Bury out.

Yup-I guess It has to come down to what victim is more likely to be a ripper "copy cat" and the more I think of it the more I favor Ellen Bury as the copy cat and Mackenzie as the real deal.

One reason why is because she was found with the skirt hiked up, exposing the mid section, like Tabram and several of the others.

but quite honestly it could be the other way around. who knows.

[Abby Normal]

It's a West Midlands accent (known as The Black Country due to what it was like during the Industrial Revolution.) Apparently when Queen Victoria used to pass in a train she'd have the curtains of her carriage drawn because it looked so horrible! It's changed......a bit!

In a car, I'm about 20-30 minutes from Wolverhampton (Eddowes) and Stourbridge (Bury.)

I even had a thought about the name Frank Carter on the pawn ticket in Eddowes possession but I think that someone found the 'actual' Carter so I think that little 'suggestion' has to be dumped!

sounds like New Jersey

[Observer]

It's a West Midlands accent (known as The Black Country due to what it was like during the Industrial Revolution.) Apparently when Queen Victoria used to pass in a train she'd have the curtains of her carriage drawn because it looked so horrible! It's changed......a bit!

In a car, I'm about 20-30 minutes from Wolverhampton (Eddowes) and Stourbridge (Bury.)

I even had a thought about the name Frank Carter on the pawn ticket in Eddowes possession but I think that someone found the 'actual' Carter so I think that little 'suggestion' has to be dumped!

It's thought Eddowes lived in London between the ages of 6 to at least 18, perhaps longer. It's anyone's guess as to what her accent was.

[Elamarna]

Thanks for you response, Elamarna.



I'd beg to differ here, actually.

The only reason I regard Bury as the best suspect is down to verifiable and empirical facts. He was a killer who had a similar signature to the Ripper. He inflicted post-mortem injuries on his victim, targetting the abdomen and sexual organs. Furthermore, he can be placed in the East End during the Ripper scare and he left not long after the last 'canonical' victim. Objectively speaking, that puts him head and shoulders above any other named suspect.

Kosminski was referred to by several senior policeman, and possibly was identified by a witness, but there is still no proof that he was anything other than a local loony.

But the point is the injuries are very different!

We will disagree.

Cheers


Steve

[Observer]

Yup-I guess It has to come down to what victim is more likely to be a ripper "copy cat" and the more I think of it the more I favor Ellen Bury as the copy cat and Mackenzie as the real deal.

One reason why is because she was found with the skirt hiked up, exposing the mid section, like Tabram and several of the others.

but quite honestly it could be the other way around. who knows.

The MO, plus the throat cut, tips it in favour of it being a JTR murder for me. If you were going to "imitate" a Ripper murder, and you had already stalked, then engaged, then cut the throat of a prostitute, I can not see why you would fail to go the whole hog and mutilate your victim ala JTR. In my mind, in McKenzie we have a watered down, Ripper at work.

[Elamarna]

Really? One large wound to the lower abdomen that exposed the intestines and several lesser incisions? Think you're splitting hairs here, fella.

There is no indication of an attempt to open the abdomen up, which is present in Chapman, Eddowes and Nichols.

The wounds are superficial similar when compared in detail they are very different.


Steve

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'd say it was very unlikely. Bury lived in a different part of the East End and almost certainly frequented different pubs. He was a decade or so younger than Eddowes, and had lived in London for less than a year before Eddowes was killed. The chances of their paths crossing was rather remote.

PS: Don't knock your accent; I think it's one of the most musical in the British Isles

Cheers Sam,

It's strange but I always wince when I hear a Black Country accent on TV. Perhaps it's because it's often exaggerated. One difference I have with you is that where I live the place names are easily pronounceable!

I agree that the chances of Eddowes and Bury knowing each other is pretty remote but of course not impossible. I realise the age difference but if Bury was buying the drinks....who knows. Anyway it's only speculation of course. I won't mention my 'Frank Carter' scenario because that would have been even more remote!

[Elamarna]

The MO, plus the throat cut, tips it in favour of it being a JTR murder for me. If you were going to "imitate" a Ripper murder, and you had already stalked, then engaged, then cut the throat of a prostitute, I can not see why you would fail to go the whole hog and mutilate your victim ala JTR. In my mind, in McKenzie we have a watered down, Ripper at work.

Hi Observer,
I see a killer out of practice since Miller's Court, why is another matter, hesitant and then disturbed.


Steve

[Herlock Sholmes]

We can debate the nature of the abdominal injuries but the most curious thing for me is that they occurred at all. If he killed his wife, presumably just to be rid of her, why the abdominal mutilations? If he'd have removed her arms and legs, say, we could 'justify' it perhaps by saying that he wanted to make her fit into the trunk more easily. Obviously murder isn't a 'normal' action but abdominal mutilations are a step further.

[Sam Flynn]

We can debate the nature of the abdominal injuries but the most curious thing for me is that they occurred at all. If he killed his wife, presumably just to be rid of her, why the abdominal mutilations?

There was one four-inch cut that penetrated the abdomen, and several superficial wounds, some of which barely pierced the skin. The term "abdominal wounds" is fair enough, but to call them "mutilations" is perhaps making them sound grander than they really were.

As to why he inflicted them, it's anyone's guess, but mine is as I wrote above - i.e. he strangled her, panicked, had a wild notion to pin the murder on the Ripper, made a half-cocked attempt at ripping, realised he couldn't do it, and stuffed her in the box while he thought of a Plan B.

[John G]

There was one four-inch cut that penetrated the abdomen, and several superficial wounds, some of which barely pierced the skin. The term "abdominal wounds" is fair enough, but to call them "mutilations" is perhaps making them sound grander than they really were.

As to why he inflicted them, it's anyone's guess, but mine is as I wrote above - i.e. he strangled her, panicked, had a wild notion to pin the murder on the Ripper, made a half-cocked attempt at ripping, realised he couldn't do it, and stuffed her in the box while he thought of a Plan B.

Considering the murder took place in Dundee, how could he hope to implicate the Ripper? What is odd, though, is that the murder appeared to be planned. However, Bury then seemed to have no idea what to do next: he slept in the same room as the body for six nights, intimating to people in the pub that she was still alive, before eventually walking into a police station and claiming that his wife had committed suicide.

Another difficulty is that if Bury wasn't the Ripper, then what was the motive for the murder?

[Sam Flynn]

Considering the murder took place in Dundee, how could he hope to implicate the Ripper?

In the same way that Ripper people from all over the UK, and elsewhere, sent letters to the police and press purporting to be from the Ripper. If someone could sent a "Ripper" letter placing the killer in Scotland, then why couldn't someone attempt to frame the Ripper for a murder in Scotland?

Another difficulty is that if Bury wasn't the Ripper, then what was the motive for the murder?

He was a drunk and abusive towards his wife, so it's quite possible that this was another one of those domestic incidents where things just got out of hand.