Jack the Ripper is an extremely rare serial killer

[Sam Flynn]

Perhaps Bury felt comfortable in Whitechapel? As opposed to other areas nearby Bow.

I don't see why should that have been the case.

[Harry D]

Thanks, Harry. Like I said, largely superficial, tentative wounds.

Really? One large wound to the lower abdomen that exposed the intestines and several lesser incisions? Think you're splitting hairs here, fella.

[Herlock Sholmes]

With regard to location we can't be sure of the ripper's thinking. Perhaps in selecting Whitechapel rather than Bow he was following the old 'not on your own doorstep' thinking? Perhaps he felt that it would lessen his chance of being recognised? We can't be certain that he would have lived in Whitechapel but by regularly visiting the area he would have gained local knowledge ( which alleys lead where for eg.) I personally don't see Bow as an issue.

[Sam Flynn]

Really? One large wound to the lower abdomen that exposed the intestines and several lesser incisions?

The intestines bulged out of that wound, it's true, but that's rather different from the wound exposing the intestines, as we saw in at least three of the Ripper murders. Indeed, it is quite possible that the intestines were forced out when Bury tried to fit the body in the box. Be that as it may, that particular wound was only four inches long, which is scarcely longer than my middle finger. If you're calling that "large", then I refer you to Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly.

As to the other wounds, I've taken description you kindly posted, and underlined where the wounds were described as "superficial".

Think you're splitting hairs here, fella.

On the contrary, I'm being accurate and objective. The vast majority of those wounds were superficial, as we can clearly see from the above. The 4" abdominal wound apart, even the very deepest only made it through to the subcutaneous muscle, without penetrating any bodily cavity, and several of them barely scratched the skin ("little more than penetrating the cuticle"). There were even two apparently aimless cuts to the chest ("commencing at the inner end of the fifth costal cartilage" which we do not see in any Ripper murder. Before someone mentions MJK, the cuts to her thorax were purposeful and clearly designed to either remove the breasts or to denude the ribs. With Mrs Bury, however, we have two superficial cuts, only one of which penetrated through the skin to the muscle, and the damage to the subcutaneous muscle only extended for one inch. The other wound which penetrated muscle (the one next to the umbilicus) ran for only three-quarters of an inch. These are small, largely superficial, and somewhat unimpressive wounds by most standards, and are an order of magnitude less severe than what we see in most of the the Whitechapel Murders.

[Harry D]

I'm talking about the design and the focus of the mutilations, Sam. Why did William Bury mutilate his wife in a manner similar to the Ripper? Was he trying to pin it on the Whitechapel fiend all the way up in Scotland? Or did he just happen to share the same fetish as an infamous serial killer. The same serial killer who preyed in the same area of London and went quiet when he moved up north. It's one coincidence too many.

Where do you stand on Alice Mckenzie? Her mutilations were shallower than Ellen's but people are more open-minded to her as a Ripper victim than they are Ellen.

[Abby Normal]

With regard to location we can't be sure of the ripper's thinking. Perhaps in selecting Whitechapel rather than Bow he was following the old 'not on your own doorstep' thinking? Perhaps he felt that it would lessen his chance of being recognised? We can't be certain that he would have lived in Whitechapel but by regularly visiting the area he would have gained local knowledge ( which alleys lead where for eg.) I personally don't see Bow as an issue.

HI HS
He was said to have a horse and cart and delivered saw dust to pubs and restuarants-so not only could it explain how he knew WC well but also why it was easy for him to kill farther away from Bow.

[Abby Normal]

The intestines bulged out of that wound, it's true, but that's rather different from the wound exposing the intestines, as we saw in at least three of the Ripper murders. Indeed, it is quite possible that the intestines were forced out when Bury tried to fit the body in the box. Be that as it may, that particular wound was only four inches long, which is scarcely longer than my middle finger. If you're calling that "large", then I refer you to Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly.

As to the other wounds, I've taken description you kindly posted, and underlined where the wounds were described as "superficial".

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On the contrary, I'm being accurate and objective. The vast majority of those wounds were superficial, as we can clearly see from the above. The 4" abdominal wound apart, even the very deepest only made it through to the subcutaneous muscle, without penetrating any bodily cavity, and several of them barely scratched the skin ("little more than penetrating the cuticle"). There were even two apparently aimless cuts to the chest ("commencing at the inner end of the fifth costal cartilage" which we do not see in any Ripper murder. Before someone mentions MJK, the cuts to her thorax were purposeful and clearly designed to either remove the breasts or to denude the ribs. With Mrs Bury, however, we have two superficial cuts, only one of which penetrated through the skin to the muscle, and the damage to the subcutaneous muscle only extended for one inch. The other wound which penetrated muscle (the one next to the umbilicus) ran for only three-quarters of an inch. These are small, largely superficial, and somewhat unimpressive wounds by most standards, and are an order of magnitude less severe than what we see in most of the the Whitechapel Murders.

Hi Sam
I see where your coming from on this but I'm with Harry on this one. yes not as bad as previous ripper victims, but post mortem mutilations to the abdomen with a knife nonetheless.

To me, it almost seems like the guy(if the ripper) just couldn't help himself.

[Sam Flynn]

I'm talking about the design and the focus of the mutilations, Sam. Why did William Bury mutilate his wife in a manner similar to the Ripper?

But these are very superficial wounds, Harry. I can't honestly see that they could be described as similar to the Ripper, except in the most half-hearted manner. Apart from that one, mere four inch, wound to the lower abdomen, Ellen has practically been tattooed, not ripped. And, I can't over-emphasise this, her throat was unharmed, except by the rope which was the sole instrument of her death.

Where do you stand on Alice Mckenzie? Her mutilations were shallower than Ellen's but people are more open-minded to her as a Ripper victim than they are Ellen.

The most that can be said for her being a potential Ripper victim is that (a) she was killed outdoors; and (b) her throat was cut. There were wounds to her abdomen - which is more than can be said for Liz Stride, by the way - but these were evidently of a superficial nature. On balance, I don't find her abdominal wounds to be sufficiently deep for her to have been a victim of the Ripper. He was a guy who knew what he was doing, and he'd had plenty of practice by the time McKenzie was killed.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam
I see where your coming from on this but I'm with Harry on this one. yes not as bad as previous ripper victims, but post mortem mutilations to the abdomen with a knife nonetheless.

All but one were superficial cuts, and the one deep wound only extended for four inches. In Ripper terms, they scarcely warrant the "honour" of being called mutilations.

To me, it almost seems like the guy(if the ripper) just couldn't help himself.

Indeed, which is why these rather pathetic wounds to Ellen Bury don't resonate at all well with their being the Ripper's handiwork.

[Sam Flynn]

Was he trying to pin it on the Whitechapel fiend all the way up in Scotland?

I think so, but only in a somewhat cack-handed manner. My guess is he got drunk, strangled her, panicked and tried half-heartedly to "do a Ripper" on her. Perhaps having realised that he was a crap Ripper, he stopped his attempts at mutilating and stuffed her into a box while he worked out what to do next.

Or did he just happen to share the same fetish as an infamous serial killer.

If so, he evidently wasn't as enthusiastic in his fetishism as his more extreme Whitechapel counterpart.

[Herlock Sholmes]

HI HS
He was said to have a horse and cart and delivered saw dust to pubs and restuarants-so not only could it explain how he knew WC well but also why it was easy for him to kill farther away from Bow.

Hi Abby,

I can't recall if I mentioned it on here or the JTR Forum fairly recently but I've always wondered if Bury knew Eddowes? We have no possible way of knowing though. I just thought that if they had been in the same pub at the same time (which isn't particularly unlikely) they might have noticed the others accent(the same terrible accent that I have in actual fact!) and graduated toward each other. If he then became a 'regular' maybe he was the one that she spoke about when she said that she knew the rippers identity? Pure conjecture of course but it's interesting to speculate now and then

[John G]

My problem with Bury as a commuter killer, is why focus on just one tiny geographical area? In fact, after the police presence in Whitechapel was greatly increased it made perfect sense to target a much wider area.

Although Bury is still one of my favourite suspects I think it has to be odds on that JtR was a local Whitechapel perpetrator with local knowledge which, of course, accords with the geographical profile: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...d-experts.html

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I can't recall if I mentioned it on here or the JTR Forum fairly recently but I've always wondered if Bury knew Eddowes? We have no possible way of knowing though. I just thought that if they had been in the same pub at the same time (which isn't particularly unlikely) they might have noticed the others accent(the same terrible accent that I have in actual fact!) and graduated toward each other. If he then became a 'regular' maybe he was the one that she spoke about when she said that she knew the rippers identity? Pure conjecture of course but it's interesting to speculate now and then

interesting take-never thought of that.

what is the accent?

[Observer]

hi observer
good point. It really is a conundrum for me anyway in regards to bury/McKenzie/ripper because I think Mackenzie is more than likely a ripper victim, one of the main reasons being the post mortem mutilation to the abdomen. same as Ellen. so I'm confused on this one.

Hi AN

There are those who believe that Bury was JTR, thus they rule out McKenzie, they have to. The thing is though, McKenzies murder was far more consistent with a Ripper kill than Ellen Bury's were. Also, McKenzie was murdered slap bang in the middle of JTR territory. I also believe McKenzie was a Ripper victim, thus ruling Bury out.

[Observer]

I think so, but only in a somewhat cack-handed manner. My guess is he got drunk, strangled her, panicked and tried half-heartedly to "do a Ripper" on her. Perhaps having realised that he was a crap Ripper, he stopped his attempts at mutilating and stuffed her into a box while he worked out what to do next.
If so, he evidently wasn't as enthusiastic in his fetishism as his more extreme Whitechapel counterpart.

Precisely my view.