Did the Seaside Home ID happen?

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff.
The Graffiti contributes nothing to the investigation.

No-one knows who wrote it, nor when it was written. Anyone can 'guess' who or when, but the police need to 'know', because unless the provenance can stand up in a court of law then it is of no value.

The writing style tells us nothing.
The fingers control the characteristics of the letters when writing on paper, this is why we see idiosyncrasies, but in larger letters across a wall it is mostly the wrist that controls the movement.
Handwriting with chalk on a wall does not betray the same idiosyncrasies that writing on paper does, so analysis of the writing would be a waste of time.

The GSG held no value to the investigation.

I disagree it tells us what the police attitude was towards potential riots

As the apron tells us the direction of the killer

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff, you yourself are proposing a conspiracy and cover-up inside the Yard, one that deliberately excluded Macnaghten from knowing about the alleged identification of Kosminski.

What utter hypocrisy for you to decry others for doing the same.

I'm simply arguing something vey different from you

[Wickerman]

I disagree it tells us what the police attitude was towards potential riots

As the apron tells us the direction of the killer

Yours Jeff

It might tell "us" something, in that regard, but it told the police nothing. The police were the ones conducting the investigation, not us.

[Jonathan H]

Actually, no, Jeff, you are not arguing something very different from me, as you have shamelessly stolen my theory.

I have argued for some time that Macnaghten with-held information about Druitt (and the real Kosminski) from Anderson, and by extension from everybody else at the Yard inlcuding officers he respected--including Swanson, Littlechild, Abberline, and so on.

For years you argued that this was impossible and ridiculous. You also spat on it as the worst kind of conspiracy-mongering.

I would argue with you that it is not a conspiracy if only one person in an organization is doing it (yes it was a two-man 'conspiracy' with George Sims, but he was not a policeman).

But you would have none of it, going on and on and on and on and on and on about how I was peddling conspiracy rubbish.

And that I owed you an apology for disagreeing with you about the above.

Now you have switched gears 180 degrees and claim that it was the other way round. That Anderson and Swanson cocnealed information--concealed the solution to the Ripepr case--from the Chief Constable of CID, later the Assistant Commissioner.

That is not supported by the primary sources but you have every right to your own fantasy.

But do you apologise to me, or concede that maybe I was right that information was being with-held by senior cops from each other, but I just have it the wrong way round?

No, of course not.

To sum up your rank hypocrisy:

1) You've lifted your conspiracy theory from me without credit or grace, and 2) You pretend it isn't a conspiracy theory when clearly it is. It is not a ****-up as you wrote; it is deliberate plotting by Anderson and Swanson according to you.

[pinkmoon]

I'm confused perhaps you can explain what his post added to the conversation?

Jx

It explained that the police wouldn't have great difficulty in trying to organise an I.D attempt because of the seriousness of these crimes and they certainly wouldn't have had to cart anyone of to the seaside to do it .I do feel sorry for the stall holder though he would have absolutely no chance of getting his spuds back.

[pinkmoon]

[QUOTE=Amanda;340983]Pinkmoon, you're a star,

Think you got your point across nicely there!

Amanda [/QUOTE
Things make a lot more sense when they are put in simple terms.Anyway must fly I've got spielberg on the other line he's thinking of making my play into a mini series.

[Trevor Marriott]

[QUOTE=pinkmoon;341025]

Pinkmoon, you're a star,

Think you got your point across nicely there!

Amanda [/QUOTE
Things make a lot more sense when they are put in simple terms.Anyway must fly I've got spielberg on the other line he's thinking of making my play into a mini series.

Yes and he`s asked me to star in it !

[pinkmoon]

[QUOTE=Trevor Marriott;341026]

Yes and he`s asked me to star in it !

Spielberg says that if you not happy with the raunchy scenes he will get you a body double.

[Monty]

Ok , we'll leave it at that.. its just disappointing because sometimes you need to put your self on the line about matters you have more knowledge about than others

Yours Jef

Apologies for not being at your beck and call Jeff,

I shall try harder in the future.

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

[QUOTE=pinkmoon;341028]

Spielberg says that if you not happy with the raunchy scenes he will get you a body double.

No need a set of jump leads will suffice !

[Jeff Leahy]

Actually, no, Jeff, you are not arguing something very different from me, as you have shamelessly stolen my theory.

I have argued for some time that Macnaghten with-held information about Druitt (and the real Kosminski) from Anderson, and by extension from everybody else at the Yard inlcuding officers he respected--including Swanson, Littlechild, Abberline, and so on.

For years you argued that this was impossible and ridiculous. You also spat on it as the worst kind of conspiracy-mongering.

I would argue with you that it is not a conspiracy if only one person in an organization is doing it (yes it was a two-man 'conspiracy' with George Sims, but he was not a policeman).

But you would have none of it, going on and on and on and on and on and on about how I was peddling conspiracy rubbish.

And that I owed you an apology for disagreeing with you about the above.

Now you have switched gears 180 degrees and claim that it was the other way round. That Anderson and Swanson cocnealed information--concealed the solution to the Ripepr case--from the Chief Constable of CID, later the Assistant Commissioner.

That is not supported by the primary sources but you have every right to your own fantasy.

But do you apologise to me, or concede that maybe I was right that information was being with-held by senior cops from each other, but I just have it the wrong way round?

No, of course not.

To sum up your rank hypocrisy:

1) You've lifted your conspiracy theory from me without credit or grace, and 2) You pretend it isn't a conspiracy theory when clearly it is. It is not a ****-up as you wrote; it is deliberate plotting by Anderson and Swanson according to you.

Jonathon you've got it all back to front. I've certainly not stollen your theory, it by coincidence treads some similar territory. But I assume everyone is telling the truth and nobody is trying to deliberately deceive.

My eureka moment was simply getting that Macnaughten and Anderson are describing two deferent events about the same suspect.

I believe MacNaughten had already formed his Druit theory, possibly even before joining the MET. His private info convincing him that was correct.

When he wrote the Memo he did so in good faith working from the files. That file was dated unto MArch 1889… and he concluded (One might add fairly) that there wasn't much to go on with Kozminski and stuck to his Druit theory

MAcNaughten however did not know about the ID. Thats because Anderson undertook this following the Crawford letter as quietly as possible.

Note I don't use the word conspiracy, its not required, as Anderson was a sharp operator and one time spy master. I believe he simply gave his word to a lady he would try and do it that way…and it was arranged with as few and little fuss as possible, via swanson.

I dont believe cases were discussed around the office. That officers were far more guarded in discussing cases in that point of history.

Thus as years passed and time passed, two separate stories developed. There is no reason for anyone to lie or conspire…MacNaughten simply desceminates the truth from the file he read…unto MArch 1889

While Anderson slowly becomes convinced (As no more murders happen) that the failed ID was the answer.

Its that simple. And it certainly doesn't require a conspiracy only people telling their own versions of events. Possibly some errors of memory (it happens) but the broad story of there accounts being correct.

Yours Jeff

[Phil Carter]

The missing suspects file was seen in 1973 by Paul Bonner of the BBC.

There were over 100 names within it.

No Kosminski. No Druitt. No Ostrog.

It went awol shortly thereafter.

Nowhere. Absolutely nowhere..is the name Kosminski written down or known to have been written down on any official police paper. It wasn't in the OFFICIAL and now missing SUSPECTS file. Neither was Druitt. Over 100 names....

Facts. Known facts. Let us not run away from or avoid them.
NOT IN THE MISSING SUSPECTS FILE. The known one.
Not hard is it.


Phil


ps. I am of the opinion that whoever purloined the file knew full well the implications of an official file being known if Kosminski and Druitt and PAV and all known proposed suspects up until that point in time are not mentioned in it. Because there is..in fact. .very little point in keeping that little keepsake without those names. It would rather change a direction. The direction of suspicion. After all. This was an OFFICIAL suspects file..not a hand written private opinion.

[Phil Carter]

Late edit.

* "keeping" should be replaced with "presenting".
Apologies.


Phil

[Garry Wroe]

I've decided to simplify what would probley have happened if the police wanted to try and I.D an inmate in an asylum who might well be a multiple murderer I've put it into a simple play format.

The problem being, Pinkmoon, that Kosminski was not an asylum inmate at the time of the supposed Seaside Home identification. He was 'sent' there, with 'difficulty', and was afterwards returned to his brother's home in Whitechapel.

[Garry Wroe]

A piece of wall writing unbeneficial to the investigation V social disorder.

Yes and no, Monty. Investigators certainly felt that the writing had the potential to inspire an outbreak of violence, but at the same time they had no idea who had authored it and thus should have photographed it on the offchance that it was the killer's handiwork. That was the no-brainer.