Did the Seaside Home ID happen?

[Jeff Leahy]

I think it's very unlikely that when someone says: "the seaside home" they mean something else, or people's minds have unravelled over time. I find these to be bizarre suggestions.
.

The problem is that general ripperology wisdom has always inclined to believe that it is a reference to the Police Seaside Home in Brighton.

This conclusion was not held by all the top experts. Martin Fido for one has always rejected it..

What it says is Seaside Home. It seems far more probable that it refers to a convalescent Seaside Home, which were common in 1891. Most private Asylums were connected to them Holloway having a number of Seaside Homes in Poole.

Yours Jeff

[Monty]

If you cant post anything constructive you might be best advised to post nothing. Your snide comments do you know justice at all.

Like I said before I have been involved in more ID parades in all different forms than you have have (sic) had hot dinners.So please do not patronize me in relation to matters appertaining to them. My experience in them has not been gathered by reading a book like yours.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

If only you'd follow your own advice, it would save you my ridicule.

I also find it amusing you are coming out with the childish "my Dads lorry is bigger than your Dads lorry" mantra. As you have NO idea of what I have done in the past, nor my involvement with Identity Parades, your bold immature statement hold no ground. As with most things you state, you shoot blind in hope it hits, whilst woefully missing the target.

Your personal experience is by no means entirely comparable with a Victorian era identity line up, as has been shown. You are one dimensional in your thinking upon this matter, and are unable to comprehend the numerous reasons why the parade was conducted in this unusual, but not wholly unique, manner.

Your experience has enhanced your ignorance, relying on your own personal background has resulted in out of date, and context, statements passed off as fact. Whilst you are correct in some aspects, the inability to take on board the historical perspective is obviously hindering you, at which you try to justify your arguments by presenting misleading supportive evidence.

In short, you really do need to read a book.

Monty

[pinkmoon]

We have a bit of a shawl situation here untill we know for certain who wrote those notes in the margin then we have no real starting point yet we carry on discussing it talk about putting the cart before the horse.

[Jeff Leahy]

We have a bit of a shawl situation here untill we know for certain who wrote those notes in the margin then we have no real starting point yet we carry on discussing it talk about putting the cart before the horse.

We don't have a shawl situation here..Its called Provenance

Yours Jeff

[pinkmoon]

We don't have a shawl situation here..Its called Provenance

Yours Jeff

I would disagree we don't know who wrote those notes I will concede there is a lot more chance of the notes been genuine then there is of the shawl been genuine but in my opinion I think there is a great doubt over their authenticity.

[Jonathan H]

The provenance for the Swanson Marginalia is excellent. I would put it at 100%.

This is not like the 'Diary', a modern hoax and a pretty lousy one that fizzled out almost immediately. Accompanied by a desperate fob-watch accessory to try and pump up the deflating balloon--another abject failure as this mutilated artifact proved it was a modern fraud.

The Marginalia is in a book that was held for decades by the Swanson family, the hand-writing is a match, and a faker would be unlikely to choose "Kosminski". For that matter a faker would hardly put in the Seaside Home either, or confirm Anderson's misleading impression that the whole business was over by early 1889.

That's my two cents.

[Trevor Marriott]

If only you'd follow your own advice, it would save you my ridicule.

I also find it amusing you are coming out with the childish "my Dads lorry is bigger than your Dads lorry" mantra. As you have NO idea of what I have done in the past, nor my involvement with Identity Parades, your bold immature statement hold no ground. As with most things you state, you shoot blind in hope it hits, whilst woefully missing the target.

Your personal experience is by no means entirely comparable with a Victorian era identity line up, as has been shown. You are one dimensional in your thinking upon this matter, and are unable to comprehend the numerous reasons why the parade was conducted in this unusual, but not wholly unique, manner.

Your experience has enhanced your ignorance, relying on your own personal background has resulted in out of date, and context, statements passed off as fact. Whilst you are correct in some aspects, the inability to take on board the historical perspective is obviously hindering you, at which you try to justify your arguments by presenting misleading supportive evidence.

In short, you really do need to read a book.

Monty

If I do decide to read one it wont be yours !

[Trevor Marriott]

I would disagree we don't know who wrote those notes I will concede there is a lot more chance of the notes been genuine then there is of the shawl been genuine but in my opinion I think there is a great doubt over their authenticity.

You are correct about the notes, and for them to be proved to be less than authentic even in part would bury Kosminski once and for all. Then can you picture all the Kosminski`ites throwing themselves of tall buildings in despair

[pinkmoon]

The provenance for the Swanson Marginalia is excellent. I would put it at 100%.

This is not like the 'Diary', a modern hoax and a pretty lousy one that fizzled out almost immediately. Accompanied by a desperate fob-watch accessory to try and pump up the deflating balloon--another abject failure as this mutilated artifact proved it was a modern fraud.

The Marginalia is in a book that was held for decades by the Swanson family, the hand-writing is a match, and a faker would be unlikely to choose "Kosminski". For that matter a faker would hardly put in the Seaside Home either, or confirm Anderson's misleading impression that the whole business was over by early 1889.

That's my two cents.

100% not really it has more chance of been genuine than say the dear diary but from what I have read over the years I'm not as convinced as most people I might well be wrong but I personally think we should treat these notes with great caution.

[Trevor Marriott]

The provenance for the Swanson Marginalia is excellent. I would put it at 100%.

This is not like the 'Diary', a modern hoax and a pretty lousy one that fizzled out almost immediately. Accompanied by a desperate fob-watch accessory to try and pump up the deflating balloon--another abject failure as this mutilated artifact proved it was a modern fraud.

The Marginalia is in a book that was held for decades by the Swanson family, the hand-writing is a match, and a faker would be unlikely to choose "Kosminski". For that matter a faker would hardly put in the Seaside Home either, or confirm Anderson's misleading impression that the whole business was over by early 1889.

That's my two cents.

But to invent a seaside home by a faker would be a brilliant idea- no name,no date, and nothing to prove or disprove it ever happened. and no means of tracing or positively identifying the home. Leaving researchers over the years scratching their heads to try to find out more about it, and prove what is supposed to have happened there.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Jonathan H]

A previous poster claimed that Macnaghten had little, if not nothing to do with investigating the Whitechapel murders--apart from writing a report in 1894 (actually there were two versions) about people and events with which he had supposedly no direct experience.

This is demonstrably false, but this caricature of an incurious, desk-bound pen pusher is certainly one of the foundation stones of contemporary [so-called] Ripperology.

From Sir Melville's 1914 memoirs:

‘During my first years of police work I was frequently down in the East End o’ nights.'

and

“I'm not a butcher,
I'm not a Yid,
Nor yet a foreign Skipper,
But I'm your own light-hearted friend,
Yours truly, Jack the Ripper.”
ANONYMOUS

‘THE Above queer verse was one of the first documents which I perused at Scotland Yard, for at that time the police post-bag bulged large with hundreds of anonymous communications on the subject of the East End tragedies.'

and,

‘I remember being down in Whitechapel one night in September 1889, in connection with what was known as the Pinchin Street murder, and being in a doss house, entered the large common room where the inmates were allowed to do their cooking. The code of immorality in the East End is, or was, unwashed in its depths of degradation.'

From the ‘Sutherland Daily Echo and Shipping Gazette’ of February 13th 1891, during the Frances Coles' murder and Ripper inquiry:

“… at an early hour Mr. MacNaghten (Acting Chief Constable) with a large number of the most experienced detectives in the force was soon in the locality, and Mr. MacNaghten, accompanied by other officials, paid a visit to the spot where the body had been found, and made himself familiar with the surroundings.”

Major Griffiths from 1898:

‘... but it is Mr. Macnaghten’s duty, no less than his earnest desire, to be first on the scene of any such sinister catastrophe. He is therefore more intimately acquainted, perhaps, with the details of the more recent celebrated crimes than anyone else at Scotland Yard.’

'The Evening Telegraph and Post’, June 2nd, 1913:

'There was no case of murder and no important burglary during his time which he did not personally investigate. Sir Melville confessed that the greatest regret of his life was that he joined the force six months after “Jack the Ripper” committed suicide. “That remarkable man”, he said, “was one of the most fascinating of criminals. Of course he was a maniac but I have a very clear idea of who he was and how he committed suicide, but that with other secrets will never be revealed by me.”

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, in ‘The Evening News’ of February 8th 1908:

“In London when a sensational mystery occurs Sir Melville Macnaghten, the Chief of the Criminal Investigation Department, often rushes to the spot in a motorcar, with a little band of assistants, comprising the keenest men at the Yard.”

[Jeff Leahy]

I would disagree we don't know who wrote those notes I will concede there is a lot more chance of the notes been genuine then there is of the shawl been genuine but in my opinion I think there is a great doubt over their authenticity.

Look on your assessment almost 99% of the worlds History could be thrown out questioned and rewritten..

Magna carta Fore-instance has never been tested

What about the American constitution has it ever been authenticated?

The reality is that Provenance is the method used by Historians to authenticate History. Its only when the Provenance is not known or insecure like say the Hitler Diaries that testing is required.

And the Swanson Marginalia has been looked at by hand writing experts there are many threads on here relating to that subject. But most importantly of all it has an excellent provenance having been in the family for many years. A family of the highest reputation.

A number of questions were recently answered in a long article in Ripperolgist by Adam Wood..

So lets not waste anymore time going around in circles and stick to what it actually says….read it carefully, as everything you require to figure out the mystery is contained within those pages..

Yours Jeff

[Batman]

It seems obvious that if Swanson did consider this suspect a serious candidate if not the ripper himself, he would have known what happened to him or his current whereabouts. To say he died is like Robert Keppel claiming Ted Bundy died in prison, while in fact he was still waiting on death row. How could Swanson be so careless? Either Swanson's suspect is alive or not. If not, then its not Aaron Kozminski right? So who is he talking about if not Kozminski despite mentioning him by name?

[pinkmoon]

Are we all sitting comfortably then let's just summarise what we are lead to believe about Kosminski here we have someone who lived in the area of the murders he suffered from some form of mental illness and came to the police's attention because he committed an act of violence involving a knife all agree so far so good.Now we are then lead to believe the police treated him as a serious suspect to these appalling murders going as far to arrange a complicated identification by the most genuine eyewitness we are asked to believe that the eyewitness identifies him but dosnt want to cooperate any further in case poor Kosminski is hung so the police agree leave the witness in peace and let Kosminski disappear into an asylum for years and is forgotten about and they all lived happily ever after.

[Batman]

I wonder if the witness was an employee of the seaside home and not just a general resident. That he was offered a job while held up there as a secret suspect. Could that be overlooked in the historical research?