Did the Seaside Home ID happen?

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

In a post on Casebook about Martin Fido, Paul Begg wrote—

" . . . I do not believe that Anderson’s suspect was Jack the Ripper.

Simon

Isn't the context of that statement that 'Begg' believes that Aaron Kozminski was Anderson's suspect and Swanson's suspect for that matter… But like Rumblow questions whether Stride was a Jack the Ripper Murder?

I suggest you take that question up with 'Begg' its not for me to comment. I've never been certain of his opinion on that subject.

I'd simply state my opinion, anyone drawing that conclusion would be in err

ISnt this exactly what this discussion 'thread' is about? The 'new' guard of Kozminskite theory?

Lets face it Simon you like the 'others', you are old school and the new-school wish to expand and build on the experts and research before them.

Hopefully we can all be asking questions of 'Martin Fido' (who clearly understands that Stride 'was' a ripper victim) at this years conference (Nottingham)

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,I'm afraid it's relevant because the whole seaside thing comes from what's in those notes untill the original notes have been properly tested we shouldn't even be discussing the seaside theory.

Its simply the other way around. The marginalia has been tested by experts. That is clear if you check the hundreds of posts on that subject.

The Marginalia have been proved genuine.

Any discussion to the contry, i.e. speculation should be taken else where

Its been done to death and is irrelevant in this thread context

The Marginalia are genuine, unless PROVED otherwise

Yours Jeff

[jerryd]

"...there was the body of a woman, and a pool of blood was streaming along the gutter from her body" (White).

"...her throat cut, and her head lying in a pool of blood" (Badham).

I am not really interested in the Mackenzie murder but I would say White talked about the Mackenzie murder.

At the end of the cul-de-sac huddled against the wall, there was the body of a woman, and a pool of blood was streaming along the gutter from her body. It was clearly another of those terrible murders. I remembered the man I had seen, and I started after him as fast as I could run, but he was lost to sight in the dark labyrinth of East End mean streets.’

If we take his words literally then this does not fit Alice McKenzie at all. She was found near the curb far from the wall with her head almost under one of the barrows and was not huddled but laying flat on her back.

Also this statement negates Castle Alley: As he turned away, one of the police officers came out of the house he had been in, and walked a few paces into the darkness of the alley. ‘Hello! What is this?’ he cried, and then called in startled tones for me to come along.

PC Walter Andrews found the body shortly after speaking to Edward Badham further up the alley where it connects with Old Castle Street (There was no cul-de-sac where she was found). He then ran north, leaving the body, where he met up with Isaac Jacobs. Jacobs would have been the first to hear of the murder until Badham arrived. Andrews never mentioned being in a house and never mentioned White being involved at all.

[pinkmoon]

Hi Pink…yeah thats cool…you and phil are welcome to explore that theory and I wish you both every success and should you prove anything then I will take that on board..

But its not relevant to this thread, and i'm hoping you will take it else wear so it can be considered in context

But back to the ID

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,I'm afraid it's relevant because the whole seaside thing comes from what's in those notes untill the original notes have been properly tested we shouldn't even be discussing the seaside theory.

[Jeff Leahy]

A massive part on the kosminski debate hinges on the famous margin notes myself like a lot of other people believe the notes that refer to the seaside home are false now the most sensible thing to do would be to have these notes tested properly.

Hi Pink…yeah thats cool…you and phil are welcome to explore that theory and I wish you both every success and should you prove anything then I will take that on board..

But its not relevant to this thread, and i'm hoping you will take it else wear so it can be considered in context

But back to the ID

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Why were the police watching that alleyway in the first place?
It has been noted that the man's appearance not only resembles Thompson, but also Druitt.
Can White be trusted, or is he making up a good story "to dine out on"? Apparently he wasn't called to the inquest, though he seems to have discovered a body-- what's that about?

At the beginning of this year I had an interesting discussion (private) with Jeff Leahy about White.

White stated:

"For five nights we had been watching a certain alley behind the Whitechapel Road. It could only be entered from where we had two men posted in hiding…”

Sergeant Edward Badham - The Mackenzie murder- :

“Badham was on duty in the vicinity of Castle Alley… On hearing the second whistle I rushed up Newcastle-street and met Andrews who shouted out, "Come on, quick." I threw my cape to the ground and rushed up after him. I saw a woman lying on the pavement on the near side with her throat cut, and her head lying in a pool of blood. The legs and stomach were exposed...“

“Police-sergeant Badham, 31 H, stated:- About 12 minutes to 1 this morning I was in Old Castle-street and saw Constable Andrews. I went up to him and said, "All right?" He replied, "All right, sergeant… I got the assistance of other constables and blocked up the ends of the alley”

"blocked up the ends of the alley" (Badham) and "It could only be entered from where we had two men posted in hiding" (White)

“It was a bitter cold night when I arrived at the scene to take the report of the two men in hiding” (White)

Ok, it was the 17th of July 1889 but “12:45 A.M.: It begins to rain in Whitechapel”

http://www.casebook.org/victims/mckenzie.html

"...a certain alley behind the Whitechapel Road" (White)

Castle Alley - Mackenzie crime scene: This area is behind Whitechapel High Street not Whitechapel Road. But is that important?

"...there was the body of a woman, and a pool of blood was streaming along the gutter from her body" (White).

"...her throat cut, and her head lying in a pool of blood" (Badham).

I am not really interested in the Mackenzie murder but I would say White talked about the Mackenzie murder.

Druitt was already dead in July 1889.

"The man was foreign in appearance" (White). And Thompson?

As I said; Mackenzie is not my theme.

[pinkmoon]

Hello pinkmoon,

I fear that the page particular boat you refer to sailed a long time ago. It should have been done in a far better manner many many years ago. To this day..I am still amazed that the original confirmation of a genuine/false set of writings from that book..was taken from a photo copy....

Something I have seen described as "less than ideal"..

You can add your own evaluation.

However..since then..much has occurred and the condition of the writing itself is in a weak state. Very faded.
I sincerely doubt further examination will ever occur.


Phil

I think I right in thinking there is a test that can date when pencil was put to paper.

[Phil Carter]

Hello pinkmoon,

I fear that the page particular boat you refer to sailed a long time ago. It should have been done in a far better manner many many years ago. To this day..I am still amazed that the original confirmation of a genuine/false set of writings from that book..was taken from a photo copy....

Something I have seen described as "less than ideal"..

You can add your own evaluation.

However..since then..much has occurred and the condition of the writing itself is in a weak state. Very faded.
I sincerely doubt further examination will ever occur.


Phil

[pinkmoon]

Hello pinkmoon,

I would love to know who added the red ink notes and when..to the asylum records I posted earlier.
Those red ink notes are quite revealing..to these eyes.


Phil

I take it you agree with me that some more detailed testing of the margin notes wouldn't be a bad thing.regards jason

[Pcdunn]

Who is the eyewitness?

Hi Pcdunn!

It seems that he was not the suspect in the case of Cox.

Hyam "was described as 5ft 7"tall, medium build with brown hair and a large brown moustache"

Cox:

"The man we suspected was about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair"

What do you think about?

Hello, S. Brett!

Hm, I'll need to read up on the Cox investigation and get back to you on that. For instance, are we certain he was watching a Ripper suspect?

Meanwhile, re a witness who got a "good view" of the man:
Are they talking about Cox or Detective White?
This is from another poster in the Francis Thompson area of the Suspects board:
"Here is Sergeant Stephen White’s description of his encounter with Jack the Ripper, and possibly Francis Thompson."

‘For five nights we had been watching a certain alleyway just behind the Whitechapel road. It could only be entered from where we had two men posted in hiding, and persons entering the ally were under observation by the two men. It was a bitter cold night when I arrived at the scene to take the report of the two men in hiding. I was turning away when I saw a man coming out of the alley. He was walking quickly but noiselessly, apparently wearing rubber shoes which were rather rare in those days. I stood aside to let the man pass, and as he came under the wall lamp I got a good look at him. He was about 5 feet 10 inches in height, and was dressed rather shabbily though it was obvious that the material of his clothes was good. Evidently a man who had seen better days, I thought but men who have seen better days are common enough down east, and that of itself was not sufficient to justify me in stopping him. His face was long and thin, nostrils rather delicate and his hair was jet black. His complexion was inclined to be sallow, and altogether the man was foreign in appearance. The most striking thing about him, however, was the extraordinary appearance of his eyes. They looked like two luminous glow worms coming through the darkness. The man was slightly bent at the shoulders, though he was obviously quite young – about 33 at the most – and gave one the idea of having been a student or professional man. His hands were snow white, and the fingers long and tapering. As he passed me at the lamp I had an uneasy feeling that there was something more than usually sinister about him, and I was strongly moved to find some pretext for detaining him; but the more I thought it over, the more I was forced to the conclusion that it was not in keeping with British police methods that I should do so. My only excuse for interfering with the passage of this man would have been his association with the man we were looking for, and I had no grounds for connecting him with the murder. It is true that I had a sort of intuition that the man was not quite right. Still, if one acted on intuition in the police force, there would be more frequent outcries about interference with the liberty of the subject, and at that time the police were criticized enough to make it undesirable to take risks. The man stumbled a few feet away from me, and I made that an excuse for engaging him in conversation. He turned sharply at the sound of my voice, and scowled at me in surly fashion, but he said ‘Goodnight’ and agreed with me that it was cold. His voice was a surprise to me. It was soft and musical, with just a tinge of melancholy in it, and it was the voice of a man of culture- a voice altogether out of keeping with the squalid surroundings of the East End. As he turned away, one of the police officers came out of the house he had been in, and walked a few paces into the darkness of the alley. ‘Hello! What is this?’ he cried, and then called in startled tones for me to come along. In the East End we are used to shocking sights but the sight I saw made the blood in my veins turn to ice. At the end of the cul-de-sac huddled against the wall, there was the body of a woman, and a pool of blood was streaming along the gutter from her body. It was clearly another of those terrible murders. I remembered the man I had seen, and I started after him as fast as I could run, but he was lost to sight in the dark labyrinth of East End mean streets.’

Why were the police watching that alleyway in the first place?
It has been noted that the man's appearance not only resembles Thompson, but also Druitt.
Can White be trusted, or is he making up a good story "to dine out on"? Apparently he wasn't called to the inquest, though he seems to have discovered a body-- what's that about?

[Phil Carter]

A massive part on the kosminski debate hinges on the famous margin notes myself like a lot of other people believe the notes that refer to the seaside home are false now the most sensible thing to do would be to have these notes tested properly.

Hello pinkmoon,

I would love to know who added the red ink notes and when..to the asylum records I posted earlier.
Those red ink notes are quite revealing..to these eyes.


Phil

[pinkmoon]

A massive part on the kosminski debate hinges on the famous margin notes myself like a lot of other people believe the notes that refer to the seaside home are false now the most sensible thing to do would be to have these notes tested properly.

[S.Brett]

I'm now being shouted at by Catrin that she told me there was a connection weeks ago, which I somehow missed… I'll chase this lead up, thanks for pointing this out

Jeff

Our partners in life; where would we be without them...

[John G]

Hi Jeff,

I believe reference as been made to Kosminski's relatives being wealthy tailors. I wonder if they sold astrachan trimmed coats!

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jeff,

In a post on Casebook about Martin Fido, Paul Begg wrote—

" . . . I do not believe that Anderson’s suspect was Jack the Ripper."

You wrote—

"Paul confirmed his belief that Aaron Kozminski was the most likely person found in the records to be the 'Kozminski'."

If Kosminski was the Ripper, who was Anderson's suspect?

Regards,

Simon