Rating The Suspects.

[GBinOz]

Hi Herlock,

I am wondering if you are aware of some new research on Deeming, outlined here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQxYiUUDZqk&t=10s&ab_channel=DarkHistory

You are probably already aware of the dressmaker's identification of Deeming's trial photo as a man with whom she had spent some time on the night of the double event, and who talked excitedly about it the next day. Easy to write off as attention seeking, but she didn't name him as Deeming, but as Mr Lawson, a frequently used known alias of Deeming. How many other persons of interest can be identified as having been in Whitechapel on the night of a murder? Curious that Deeming's last impersonation in Australia was as Baron Swanson?

The other find is the transcript of a court case from 1892 where Deeming stated that he had contracted syphilis from a prostitute who had made a useless man of him for two years, it was right to kill such, he would have killed her, and intended to kill her, and he would not have thought it murder as she deserved it.

The other discovery came from the Crime Museum at Scotland Yard, where Deeming's death mask was on display as the face of Jack the Ripper.

Perhaps Deeming needs a boost in categories 2, 4, 5 and 6?

The other thing I noticed is that your list doesn't include G Wentworth Bell Smith.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/persons-of-interest-or-actual-suspects/the-lodger-s/2731-g-wentworth-bell-smith

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

I assume you mean 1867

This is interesting tho.

Just checking that you were paying attention Tani.

[Tani]

I’m afraid not Tani.

Im thinking that I should award him a point for medical knowledge though. He never qualified as a Doctor but he registered as a medical student at the London Hospital in 1967 so it looks like he would have had at least some training and surely anatomy would have been an early part of any training? Morley says that it was said that he took a keen interest in anatomy (again with no source though)

I assume you mean 1867

This is interesting tho.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Has he a source for this?

I’m afraid not Tani.

Im thinking that I should award him a point for medical knowledge though. He never qualified as a Doctor but he registered as a medical student at the London Hospital in 1967 so it looks like he would have had at least some training and surely anatomy would have been an early part of any training? Morley says that it was said that he took a keen interest in anatomy (again with no source though)

[Tani]

Hi Robert,

I just checked the Morley book. I based it on this: He returned to religion and after attempts to start a mission in the East End failed, suffered the first of several nervous breakdowns, which occurred during stressful periods of his life.

Has he a source for this?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Robert,

I just checked the Morley book. I based it on this: He returned to religion and after attempts to start a mission in the East End failed, suffered the first of several nervous breakdowns, which occurred during stressful periods of his life.

Sorry Paddy, I called you Robert. I was just answering a post from a Robert on the other thread.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Amended.


1. Age/physical - 2 = no problem, 1 = some doubt, 0 = eliminated imo

2. Location - 2 = no problem, 1 = reasonable travel/some doubt, 0 = eliminated imo

3. Violence - 4 - killed woman (non-family member) with knife, 3 - killed woman (family member) with knife, 2 - violence with a knife, 1 - violence without a knife, 0 - no violence.

4. Mental health issues - 2 = serious/violent, 1 = other, 0 = none known

5. Police interest - 2 = at the time, 1 = later, 0 = none known.

6. Hatred/dislike of prostitutes/women - 2 = yes, 1 = links to prostitution, 0 = none known

7. Medical/anatomical knowledge/(including slaughterman and butcher

- yes = 1, no = 0




……,,,,,,……,,,,,,……,,,,,,……,,,,,,……,,,,,,……,,, ,,,…… ,,,,,,……,,,,,,……,,,,,,……



Kelly > 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 = 12
Bury > 2 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 = 10
Cutbush > 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 = 9
Hyams > 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 8
Kosminski 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 = 8
Grainger > 2 - 1 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 = 7
Chapman > 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 = 7
Tumblety > 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 = 7
GSC Lechmere > 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 = 7
Thompson > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 = 6
Barnado > 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 = 6
Cohen > 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 6
Levy > 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 = 6
Druitt > 2 - 2 - 0 -1 - 1 - 0 = 6
Barnett > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 = 5
Stephen > 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4
Stephenson > 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 = 4
Bachert > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4
Cross > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4
Hardiman > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4
Hutchinson > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4
Mann > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4
Gull > 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 = 3
Maybrick > 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 3
Sickert > 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 3


If it could be shown that it was reasonably possible that they were in England…

Deeming > 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 7
Feigenbaum > 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 7

[Herlock Sholmes]

And by the way Hurley, I like your poll, but I have questions for you about something I noticed in you ratings, concerning category 4:

4. Mental health issues - 2 = serious/violent, 1 = other, 0 = none known

You awarded Kelly, Cutbush, Hyams and Kosminski a "2" and in fact those persons were certified insane. But Cohen and Levy received only a "1" yet they were certified also. Why not a 2?

Also, why were Barnardo and Druitt each awarded a "1" and Stephen a "2" in this category? As far as I know none of those persons were certified insane.

Please answer at your convenience,

Paddy

I wasn’t going by ‘certified insane’, I was using a vague ‘mental health’ issues angle and dividing them between violent and non-violent. So for Druitt it was his suicide with note thinking that he might end up like his mother, who was in an asylum. Stephen should have been a 1 as you rightly pointed out so I’ve changed it.

It’s interesting that you should mention James Kelly in another post Robert. I’ve been intending for about 3 years to re-read Tully’s book but I haven’t got there yet. I only read it once, when it first came out. I was looking through my stuff a few months ago and came across John Morrison’s pamphlet Jimmy Kelly’s Year of the Ripper Murders.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Good morning Hurley,

Why do you award Barnardo a point for "Mental Health Issues" ?

Hi Robert,

I just checked the Morley book. I based it on this: He returned to religion and after attempts to start a mission in the East End failed, suffered the first of several nervous breakdowns, which occurred during stressful periods of his life.

[Paddy Goose]

Thanks Hurley,

Im starting to wish that I hadn’t started this now.

But I like it! James Kelly won.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Good morning Hurley,

Why do you award Barnardo a point for "Mental Health Issues" ?

Hi Paddy, I read the write up in Morley’s book which I don’t have with me. I’ll have a look when I’m back and let you know why I did it. Unless I just made an error of course.

Ill also check your points in post 15 Paddy.

Im starting to wish that I hadn’t started this now.

[Paddy Goose]

And by the way Hurley, I like your poll, but I have questions for you about something I noticed in you ratings, concerning category 4:

4. Mental health issues - 2 = serious/violent, 1 = other, 0 = none known

You awarded Kelly, Cutbush, Hyams and Kosminski a "2" and in fact those persons were certified insane. But Cohen and Levy received only a "1" yet they were certified also. Why not a 2?

Also, why were Barnardo and Druitt each awarded a "1" and Stephen a "2" in this category? As far as I know none of those persons were certified insane.

Please answer at your convenience,

Paddy

[Fiver]

I was tempted to do the same with Gull Fiver.

I was going to ask you this a few days ago but could you point me in the direction of some info on this other Lechmere. I’d be quite happy to add him when I make some changes later.

The less unlikely Lechmere, George Capel Scudamore Lechmere.

[Paddy Goose]

Good morning Hurley,

Why do you award Barnardo a point for "Mental Health Issues" ?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'd give Gull a 0 on age/physicality. He was in his 70s and a recovering stroke victim.

I'll also pitch a -1 on Hatred of Women. It's not just that Dr Gull had no known hatred of women, Gull actively promoted women being trained as doctors.

I'd also like to mention the less unlikely Lechmre, George Capel Scudamore Lechmere.

1. Age/physicality - 2 Aged 38.

2. Location - 2

3. Violent - 3 Tried, but failed to murder his wife by slitting her throat.

4. Mental health issues - 1 At his trial, claimed to have no memory of his actions and that "sometimes he was not responsible for his actions".

5. Police interest - 0

6. Hatred/dislike of prostitutes/women - 1 No evidence that he consorted with prostitutes, but his wife testified "the prisoner had before said he would settle me—I have gone in fear of my life for a very long time."

7. Medical/anatomical knowledge - 0 He was a barber.

GCS Lechmere > 2 - 2 - 3 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 = 9

I was tempted to do the same with Gull Fiver.

I was going to ask you this a few days ago but could you point me in the direction of some info on this other Lechmere. I’d be quite happy to add him when I make some changes later.