Rating The Suspects.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Funny but i never saw it as a game Herlock, perhaps you do, i just a debate the evidence provided on the suspects, and give my honest opinion when ask and invited to do so.

It becomes an impossible ‘game’ when you deny what’s in black and white.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think your dreaming mate , ive never said you couldnt have an opinion on Druitt as your preferred suspect ,only that he was a very poor one, which ive argued many points as to why that is the case based on the information we have on offer .

1. Because my opinion on Gull bothers you so much .!

Clearly a diversion and not a direct answer.

2. I post on any suspect i think falls in the ''very unlikely catagory'' when others have them in their top 3 whom ever they might be . Others are free to do the same.

Again, not an answer to the question.

3. 70 year old men commit murder Herlock. just as easy as 31 year olds do . In the past ive shown Documented evidence from Guys Hospital own medical records as to the lack of serverity of Gulls MINOR Stroke [ i .e One ] you dont agree with this and you argue from a different standpoint , that doesnt make you right !

Yet again, not an answer but a diversion. I asked you what makes a 71 year old stroke victim likelier than a physically fit 31 year old.

From The Dictionary of National Biography:

“In the autumn of 1887 he was attacked with paralysis, which compelled him to retire from practice; a third attack caused his death on 29 Jan. 1890.”

How can a minor stroke cause him to retire? He was ‘attacked with paralysis,’ that’s not ‘minor.’

If you wish to continue the debate im happy to do so , just dont do it a way that is Offensive or Disrepectful, and i will endeavour to do the same .

I’ll debate/discuss with anyone as long as they do it honestly and that they don’t debate something that’s in black and white.

And ps, don’t try the tactic of throwing in words like ‘offensive’ or ‘disrespectful’ because I’ve said nothing offensive here.

[FISHY1118]

And when you realise that the game is up its ‘time to move on.’ Perhaps I should do a poll on who is right here and who is wrong. No point…you wouldn’t get a single vote Fishy because you’re wrong and you know it. Don’t let personal animosity trump reasoning.

Time to move on..

Funny but i never saw it as a game Herlock, perhaps you do, i just a debate the evidence provided on the suspects, and give my honest opinion when ask and invited to do so.

[FISHY1118]

I have no influence over other people’s opinion on Druitt, Fishy. I can only assume that your ‘some’ means me? Here’s a few questions that, if you’re consistent, you will completely ignore. In fact I’ll probably be in danger of a heart attack if you do answer them because it will be a first.

1. Why does my opinion on Druitt bother you so much? (and please don’t say that it doesn’t because your numerous Druitt-related comments prove otherwise)
2. Why, when there is no evidence against any suspect, do you only consider this worth mentioning in regard to Druitt?
3. Why do you think that a physically fit 31 year old is less likely to have been the killer than a 71 year old multiple stroke victim who was no longer able to even continue his job as a Doctor.

As I said…I expect no answer so if you don’t intend an answer please just refrain from the kind of stuff you posted in #43 please. We’ve had enough of that.

I think your dreaming mate , ive never said you couldnt have an opinion on Druitt as your preferred suspect ,only that he was a very poor one, which ive argued many points as to why that is the case based on the information we have on offer .

1. Because my opinion on Gull bothers you so much .!

2. I post on any suspect i think falls in the ''very unlikely catagory'' when others have them in their top 3 whom ever they might be . Others are free to do the same.

3. 70 year old men commit murder Herlock. just as easy as 31 year olds do . In the past ive shown Documented evidence from Guys Hospital own medical records as to the lack of serverity of Gulls MINOR Stroke [ i .e One ] you dont agree with this and you argue from a different standpoint , that doesnt make you right !


If you wish to continue the debate im happy to do so , just dont do it a way that is Offensive or Disrepectful, and i will endeavour to do the same .

[FISHY1118]

Sickert > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 = 5

Sickert often used / paid prostitutes to pose in his paintings .

[FISHY1118]

I never asked a question.

''Stationed down in Dorset, would he have traveled to London for just one day and night and somehow end up in East London?''


Sorry Rj, I just thought this was your question that which i responed to with mine .

[Herlock Sholmes]

A question for all - should I add a category….Can be placed at or near at crime scene at the time of a murder? I want to be fair to all suspects including Cross.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Fascinating, Herlock. But to be a proper scientific poll, shouldn't you include some controls for comparison? For instance how would OTHER serial killers, such as P. Sutcliffe or T. Bundy rate? Or another example, Charles Manson? Or violent non-serial killers?

Hi CF, I can’t make any claim to be scientific as I’m no expert but I do take your point.

I’d give Peter Sutcliffe: 2 - 2 - 4 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 = 14. But I’d perhaps ask how he would score if we were looking back on a series of unsolved of Yorkshire Ripper murders and Sutcliffe was just a lorry driver who was name as a possible … 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 = 6.

[C. F. Leon]

Fascinating, Herlock. But to be a proper scientific poll, shouldn't you include some controls for comparison? For instance how would OTHER serial killers, such as P. Sutcliffe or T. Bundy rate? Or another example, Charles Manson? Or violent non-serial killers?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Not so fast, Herlock.

See under the thread "Sir William Gull" for Gull's whereabouts in August & September 1888.

Just seen it Roger. Good find. Does it justify moving his location score back to 1 considering that I’ve kept Druitt at 2 knowing that he was in Blandford on the day prior to Nichols murder?

[rjpalmer]

Gull - I’ve changed location from 1 to 2 after Ms D pointed out that we have no reason to believe that he wasn’t in London at the time. I don’t know why I only gave him 1 to be honest.

Not so fast, Herlock.

See under the thread "Sir William Gull" for Gull's whereabouts in August & September 1888.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Not that anything can really be read into it but…

There’s almost a dividing line between those on 6 and below and those on 7 and above. None of the ‘6 and belows’ score anything for violence but all of the ‘7 and aboves’ do with the exception of Barnado and Tumblety.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Amendment Five


Kelly > 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 = 12

Bury > 2 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 = 10

Cutbush > 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 = 9

Deeming > 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 = 9

Hyams > 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 8

Kosminski 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 = 8

Grainger > 2 - 1 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 = 7

Chapman > 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 = 7

Tumblety > 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 = 7

GSC Lechmere > 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 = 7

Barnado > 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 = 7

G. Wentworth Bell Smith > 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 = 7

Cohen > 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 = 7

Thompson > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 = 6

Levy > 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 = 6

Druitt > 2 - 2 - 0 -1 - 1 - 0 = 6

Barnett > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 = 5

Stephen > 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4

Stephenson > 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 = 4

Bachert > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4

Cross > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4

Hardiman > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4

Hutchinson > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4

Mann > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4

Gull > 1 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 = 4

Maybrick > 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 3

Sickert > 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 3


If it could be shown that it was reasonably possible that they were in England…


Feigenbaum > 2 - 0 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 6

…….

Changes

Cohen - I’ve changed number 6 to 1 after Scott informed me that Cohen had been found in a brothel.

Gull - I’ve changed location from 1 to 2 after Ms D pointed out that we have no reason to believe that he wasn’t in London at the time. I don’t know why I only gave him 1 to be honest.

Feigenbaum - I’ve changed Location to zero because, on reflection, it seems unreasonable to award a point for reasonable travel/some doubt when the fact is that we have no evidence that he wasn’t in the USA at the time of the murders. I even have him in a separate section because of that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I pretty much agree with your assessment here.

I'm purely throwing this out there because you invited comments;

1) Re location - one could make an argument for downgrading Druitt to a 1 due to the cricket matches (which don't eliminate him but do make it more difficult for him to be on site). Whereas as far as we're aware Gull was in London (albeit I assume in the west end) which could earn him a "2" on your scale.

2) Re mental health - the original criteria was serious / violent. Whilst there is no evidence of violence in Druitt's case, one could argue that his issues were certainly serious enough for him to commit suicide for fear of ending up like his mother. One could make a case for this earning him a "2" here.

Just some thoughts, but ultimately I concur with your scoring.

Hi Ms D,

My initial thought was to go for a 1 on location but on reflection I thought that to assign a suspect a 1 should only be if there is some doubt as to whether they could have got to the location. As Druitt could easily have got to London due to the train service I went for 2. You have pointed something that’s raised an eyebrow though. I don’t really see why I only gave Gull a 1 on location? As far as I’m aware there’s no evidence that he wasn’t in London at the time of the murders. I’ll change it to 2. Thanks for pointing it out.

I gave Druitt a 1 on the Mental Health Issues part because I was distinguishing between issues that led to violence. Some might say that v]suicide is violence against oneself but I’ll leave it as it is.

Thanks for the good spot.

[Ms Diddles]

I’ll explain my thinking and anyone is free to comment, agree or disagree.

Druitt > 2 - 2 - 0 -1 - 1 - 0 = 6

Age/Physical - 2 (speaks for itself)
Location - 2 (speaks for itself, nothing about where Druitt lived precluded or hindered him from being the killer)
Mental Health Issues - 1 (speaks for itself. Druitt committed suicide and feared that he was going to end up like his mother who was in an asylum)
Police Interest - 1 (speaks for itself Mac names him but after the crimes)

So I see nothing wrong with Druitt’s score of 6.

Gull > 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 = 3

I’ll invite comment because I think that there’s a case for Gull being eliminated, and of course Fishy will think I’m being personal, so I’ll make my point and leave it entirely up to everyone else on here.

As I was being over harsh on Druitt in connection to location because I was trying too hard to show that I was being unbiased I think that I’ve been to easy on Gull in regard to Age/Physical. So when does a proposed suspect become too old or too infirm to be considered a serious suspect? At the time of the murders William Gull was 71 (double or more than the average age for a serial killer) and added to that he’d had multiple, debilitating strokes. Yes, he recovered in so much as he wasn’t bedridden or unable to speak or feed himself so he could live a fairly normal life. But he was forced by the illness to give up his job and this wasn’t a physical job. He wasn’t a surgeon after all. His job was to sit in his consulting room listening to wealthy patients and making a diagnosis. So we have a 71 year old man incapable of doing that.

So what does everyone think? Should a 71 year old multiple stroke victim be eliminated from the list?

Hi Herlock,

I pretty much agree with your assessment here.

I'm purely throwing this out there because you invited comments;

1) Re location - one could make an argument for downgrading Druitt to a 1 due to the cricket matches (which don't eliminate him but do make it more difficult for him to be on site). Whereas as far as we're aware Gull was in London (albeit I assume in the west end) which could earn him a "2" on your scale.

2) Re mental health - the original criteria was serious / violent. Whilst there is no evidence of violence in Druitt's case, one could argue that his issues were certainly serious enough for him to commit suicide for fear of ending up like his mother. One could make a case for this earning him a "2" here.

Just some thoughts, but ultimately I concur with your scoring.