Team Jack

[lynn cates]

take down

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"no bruising because she was struck and bled out before there was enough time for it to commence or because she wasn't struck at all?"

I would suppose the latter. If the former, why were Polly and Annie bruised?

"Let's break it down."

Let's.

"She ended up on the ground where her throat was slit."

Quite.

"how did she end up on the f-ing ground? Either she was struck or her murderer executed a takedown."

Good bifurcation; and, again, I propose the latter.

"Something similar to your Stride demonstration perhaps."

Vaguely similar--except Kate was likely not cut UNTIL on the ground.

"I think it likely she was taken down vs being struck."

Completely agree.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Errata.

Thanks for that. Upright though? No blood on the front or anywhere else that's any different to the others. Would you be so kind as to describe said scenario? Now I'm really curious.

[Errata]

Okay so no bruising because she was struck and bled out before there was enough time for it to commence or because she wasn't struck at all? This is why I want a medical/professional opinion. Let's break it down. She ended up on the ground where her throat was slit. That is the most likely since there is a lack of blood on her front. So how did she end up on the f-ing ground? Either she was struck or her murderer executed a takedown. Something similar to your Stride demonstration perhaps. Being reasonable here. She didn't just laydown on the ground. So I'd like to rule out or at least determine what is more likely based on possibility/probability. I think it likely she was takendown vs being struck. But we do have her face and it looks brutal. If the cuts are not likely to produce that look, then aha! We've got something either way.

She may have had her throat cut while upright. And she would be the only one to have had that done. Which is why she is less of a mystery to me than the others. If that happened, I completely understand how she got taken down. It's the others that still bother me.

Her face does look very swollen. However swelling does happen to perimortem injuries. Not to something that happened half an hour after she died, but immediately after it does. No matter how much blood loss there is, a person never loses all of it, or even a majority of it without steps taken to ensure that happens. Butchered animals are suspended for this reason. But more important than the blood would be the fluid in the tissue. When tissue is mashed, a lot of fluid is released. Thus juicers. But if the tissue is still encased in skin, the fluid drains to the space between the tissue and the skin, and it swells and distorts. Which is why when boxers have an eye swell shut, they have someone cut the swollen part. A little blood and a lot of fluid looks like a lot of blood. But it is mostly fluid.

And to be frank, there is a window of time in which corpses really don't look so good. When they are swollen and sort of.. doughy. It's an early part of the putrefaction process (and a later one as well if you give it long enough) and if memory serves thats after about 10 hours maybe? but it only lasts a couple of hours. When those gasses release that's when a corpse starts to smell like a corpse. If the photo was taken during that stage, it might explain the disfigurement. The hands are the best way to tell. But there are other pictures of her dead where she doesn't look THAT swollen. So maybe it's a timing thing.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn

Okay so no bruising because she was struck and bled out before there was enough time for it to commence or because she wasn't struck at all? This is why I want a medical/professional opinion. Let's break it down. She ended up on the ground where her throat was slit. That is the most likely since there is a lack of blood on her front. So how did she end up on the f-ing ground? Either she was struck or her murderer executed a takedown. Something similar to your Stride demonstration perhaps. Being reasonable here. She didn't just laydown on the ground. So I'd like to rule out or at least determine what is more likely based on possibility/probability. I think it likely she was takendown vs being struck. But we do have her face and it looks brutal. If the cuts are not likely to produce that look, then aha! We've got something either way.

[lynn cates]

bruising

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

OK, swelling, but not recent bruising. They checked and found none.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

professional opinon

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Yes, a bit of swelling at least. Could the knife hacking have done it?

Cheers.
LC

I'm not sure myself. Bruising and swelling require blood/fluid. Eddowes was drained of it so I wonder how much would've been able to occur. Especially if the facial mutilations took place after the throat cutting. Maybe Prosector will provide an opinion for us?

[lynn cates]

"Why swellst thou so?"

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Yes, a bit of swelling at least. Could the knife hacking have done it?

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn

Okay, but her face doesn't look not swollen. Would be best to have a pic of her face before the postmortem occured. She def looks swoll up. Your point is taken though.

[lynn cates]

swelling

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Hard to pronounce on swelling unless:

1. a doctor confirms it

or

2. an original is used for comparison.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Yet again failure.

Hello DLDW.

"Blow to head was only for Eddowes." Eddowes? Are you sure about that? Looks like Polly and perhaps Annie.

Cheers.
LC

I was trying to say I was only speaking of Eddowes. Now what I was getting at is there is a massive amount of damage to her face. Swelling and bruising. Would this amount of bruising occur from the cuts that close to death? What about after she had bled out? It's why I take a blow to the face to be a serious possibility. Her face is f

[caz]

No of course it never has stopped people from murder, but it vastly reduced their numbers. Case in point, there were 15,000 murders in the US in 2010 but only 46 executions. That's 3 executions for every thousand murders. Without knowing I'll bet there was a lot closer fraction of murders/executions then. And that's why there were fewer murders then. Everybody and their dog knew that. Then.

Ergo it reduced the chance some bloke would foolishly sign on as a murder team member. Then. It's a difficult concept for us moderns to grasp.

Roy

Hi Roy,

When Myra Hindley was helping Ian Brady to torture, murder and bury several children on the moors around Manchester, I believe the death penalty was still available in the UK, although it was abolished by the time they were convicted and sentenced. So it appears the fear of being hanged made little difference in their case.

Often these murdering psychopaths are able to lure an impressionable individual - male or female - into their nasty little web and keep them there to do their bidding. Others manage to find someone who is their equal in evil, which arguably Hindley was.

I wouldn't rule out team Jack personally, but I too have doubts that they would have got away with it forever. Someone operating alone has no problems with the potential liability of a passenger.

Love,

Caz
X

[Errata]

One of the problems with the scratches on Annie's neck is that they are in the wrong place to be purposeful. They are behind the left ear. If someone was strangling her, his nails would not be in contact with her skin. So he didn't scratch her, and certainly not there unless he had super tiny hands. If someone was strangling her and she was trying to pry his hands off, she would first try to get the pressure off her windpipe, which is in front. Assuming that didn't work, she would try to pry his fingers off, which would be in back. And if she was trying to pry off a ligature, she would try that in front. It's not a conscious thing, but the number one need is to relieve the pressure on the windpipe so she can breathe. And forensic science has watched any number of videos and studied any number of crimes. When strangled, people try to free the front of the throat. It's instinctive.

The scratches shouldn't be where they are, unless her entire neck was scratched up or she scratched herself because something itched.

In order for a head injury to cause either loss of consciousness or severe disorientation, the brain has to be injured. Which isn't that hard. It's a pretty delicate organ. Not seriously injured. Rattled around in the skull will do it. But that leaves signs. Bruises on the brain or meningeal sac, bleeding, broken blood vessels on the interior surface of the skull, broken meningeal sac, swelling, cracks in the skull, crazing on the skull.... Chapman has a bruise above her temple. Which is the hardest part of the skull. It's like the forehead. Pretty thick bone. You have to be hit with a baseball bat in order for it to disorient you. I assure you, a punch to the forehead just hurts. And it usually breaks the knuckles of the person who hits you there. The temple itself is the weakest part. It requires disturbingly little force to shatter that bone. Which is why it's often fatal. The shards of the skull drive into the brain. Had she been hit there, it would have broken, and we would have known.

And heres another problem. It is unlikely he was strangling her while she was on the ground. It's very difficult to do that without putting a lot of pressure on the collar bone. The heels of the hands or the wrists naturally rest there when choking someone. It takes 12 pounds of pressure to snap a collarbone. someone leaning on it is sufficient. It's not impossible to avoid the collarbone, but most likely a killer wouldn't bother.

And what I mean when I say subduing someone, I mean completely. Not just keep them from escaping, but keep their hands from moving, keep their feet from moving. People kick to try and free themselves. That shows up on the ground. Scrapes and gouges out of the dirt, mud furrows dug up by the feet, bloody fingernails and hands from scraping at the floors or walls. These women are dying. Their bodies are going to fight that. If you look up strangulation crimes scenes, they invariably look like a tornado went through. Why don't we see that here?

I am not saying that there are absolutes in any behavior. But there are trends, and barring severe intoxication, there is really no reason for these crimes to not adhere to those trends. So why don't they? Even ten seconds of fighting is a world of fight. Don't believe me? Get a stopwatch, sit on someone, and let them do anything they want to break free for ten seconds. Wear pads. It's an eternity (yes I tried it. it hurt a lot.). How on earth is a circular bruise on the back of the hand a defensive wound? What did she come in contact with? Why didn't that make a sound? Theres a lot of oddness. One woman who didn't fight could be an outlier. But none of them did. That's noteworthy.

[lynn cates]

agreed

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Lovely to agree and be agreeable.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

You see Lynn, we do agree on a few things. This and the short upwards cut on Eddowes sternum.. ;-)

[lynn cates]

scratches

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Yes, the scratches, going in a different direction, likely indicate that Annie struggled fiercely to cause him to release his grip.

Cheers.
LC