Edward spooner

[Cogidubnus]

130 years ago the climate was cooler.

Two months worth of cooler?

(Edit) I note your subsequent undertaking (or not!) to re-educate your good lady...frankly I wouldn't...your remaining term may prove longer and happier

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Evening News: Did you notice the woman so that you would know her again?
Matthew Packer: Yes. I saw that she was dressed in dark clothes, looked a middle aged woman, and carried a white flower in her hand. I saw that as plain as anything could be, and I am sure I should know the woman again. I was taken today to the see the dead body of a woman lying in Golden land mortuary, but I can swear that wasn't the woman that stood at my shop window on Saturday night.

So Packer said the woman with the man buying grapes, held a white flower.
That Evening News edition of Oct 4, also discussed the discrepancies in the reported flower colour.

There is one seeming discrepancy between the story of Packer and the facts as published; it has been reported that a red flower was found in the murdered woman's bosom, and Packer states that she wore a white flower. This is sufficiently easy of explanation since Packer does not say that the woman wore only a white flower, but that the attention was particularly drawn to the white flower from its standing out against the black of her dress, and the absence of the flower from her jacket when found by the police is unimportant in view of the evidence of Miss Harstein who subsequently saw fragments of it in the passage.

The reference to a red flower is interesting - I can't find Lamb making any reference to the flower in any paper, let alone the colour of it, Spooner said it was red and white, and Smith and Reid do not testify until the 5th, yet the EN reporter is aware of the flower being reported as being red.
So who gave this information about the flower's colour? Did it come from the police directly? Maybe someone from the club told them (Arbeter Fraint said it was red).
Evidently the EN reporter thought it was important enough to mention that Packer's reference to a white flower had been contradicted by an alternative report with at least some authority, even though that info did not seem to make into the papers (either that, or my research skills need improving).

Now consider how the reporter explains away the contradiction - by supposing there might have been more than one flower, and that only the white flower (against the black dress) was seen by Packer, and which ends up destroyed.

Wikipedia: Human vision is unable to distinguish color in conditions of either high brightness or very low brightness. In conditions with insufficient light levels, color perception ranges from achromatic to ultimately black.

So the EN reporter's explanation makes some sense.
This snippet is from the St James Gazette, Oct 1:

The body when found was quite warm. In one hand was clutched a box of sweets, and at her breast were pinned two dahlias.

So the white flower might still have a flicker of life in it.
The obvious questions are; where did it go, and if the white flower and grapes were real, who was the customer, and where does he live? Echo, Oct 18:

An Echo reporter called yesterday afternoon upon Mr. Packer, the Berner-street fruiterer, where the murderer bought the grapes for Elizabeth Stride. It now appears that the man was known by Mr. Packer, who positively asserted, "I had seen him in this district several times before, and if you ask me where he lives I can tell you within a little. He lodges not a great way from the house where Lipski, who was hanged for poisoning a woman, lived." "How many times have you seen him?" was asked Mr. Packer. "About twenty; and I have not seen him since the murder."

Other than Packer, only Spooner mentions the colour white when referring to the flower.
Prior to Spooner's arrival in the yard, Kozebrodsky and Diemschitz are adamant that they see grapes in Stride's right hand.
(Fanny Mortimer also mentions grapes in hand, but it's hard to tell if this is a first or second-hand account.)
After Spooner observes the victim close-up, there are no further observations of grapes.

Surely though, what I'm implying might have occurred must be false when considering that neither the white flower nor the grapes were found either on Stride, or elsewhere in the yard.
Yet Spooner could have scattered the flower petals, thrown the rest of the flower in the gutter, and hoped the petals went unnoticed and/or blew away.
However, doing similar with the grapes would not be an option - if the grapes were found they could easily be linked to their sale at Packer's shop, and therefore to the buyer (by his description).
So what did he do with the grapes? Simple; he ate them.

[Wickerman]

Seeing as it's a slow day here, I looked up the contemporary press. The Peterborough Standard of Sat. 22nd Sept. 1888 reported the success of Rose competitions with as many as 41 first prize honours won by the blooms of the Padholme Nurseries across England, namely at; Crystal Palace, Alexandra Palace, at Darli8ngton, Manchester, Birkenhead, Hitchin, Boston, Uppingham, Bedford, Nuneaton, etc., etc.

A second article reports a successful Harvest Festival on Wednesday (19th) in town at St. Mary's Church where the service was brightly coloured by the presence of; White Dahlias, Virginian Creeper, White & Red Chrysanthemums, Sun-flowers, "posies of Roses" with choice ferns, scarlet Geraniums and Cream Roses....

Doncha jus' luv'it when yer spouse is wrong...
I'll let her know....

On second thoughts, maybe not....

[DJA]

1888 had a cold Autumn.
Rose growers were in Terror.
Sumfin' like that.
I'm goin' now.

[Wickerman]

130 years ago the climate was cooler.

[Cogidubnus]

"My wife tells me you wouldn't get a rose around Oct. 1st. in England, wrong climate"

Hi John, please advise your wife that on 29th November in my small suburban garden we currently have no fewer than five rose bushes in bloom...of course, current day roses are a "different breed" to those available in 1888, but I suppose hothouse types, though expensive, would've been available!

[Michael W Richards]

The flower was white, a sprig of maidenfern framing it.

[Michael W Richards]

I'm surprised you haven't responded to the question posed at the end of #36.
I thought it concerned one of your key interests - when did the murder occur and when do people start accumulating in Dutfield's Yard?

Ive said it on plenty of occasions, but since you asked, ...I think Spooner saw 2 Jews running for help at around 12:40-45, which fits with 3 corroborative accounts and the estimated cut time range given by Blackwell. The Jews were not Louis and Issac[s]. Men were already by Liz when the Jews left the passageway, Louis was said tobe there when Issac K left for help around 12:40...alone. So the cut time would be just before that time, almost when Liz disappears from the street...12:35-12:40. She comes into the passageway, someone thinks she shouldnt be there, gets rough with her, she says a few things and turn to go back out onto the street, he grabs her scarf, twists it, making Liz twist to decrease pressure, he slips a knife under her chin, and as he runs it across her throat he drops the scarf. That takes a few scant seconds, and just 2 seconds for the actual attack. Just like Blackwell said he thought it happened.

[Michael W Richards]

I am not putting him forward as Jack the Ripper, but i think he killed Elizabeth stride.
He was standing outside the bee hive pub with a young woman when he heard two jews shouting "murder and police!"
He said he had been to another beer shop before. Did police check this information out?

I Think he was out drinking, and spent his money, he panicked and saw Liz walk up and down berner street, he saw his chance, tried to rob her, realized she could recognize him, he slit her throat. He noticed schwarz's, and shouted "lipski!" Schwartz said the attacker who shouted, did so in English. He then
calmly walked round the corner to fairclough street, met his young woman outside the pub and when he herd Diemshitz and the other member he went back with them to the yard. He went over and touched her chin, he saw a chance to clear himself and he even helped Lamb close the doors. When police arrived, he got involved pretty quick, but he backed off quickly from the scene. He moved soon after the murder, and had a son in 1890. I hope someone can help me?
To prove he was liz strides murderer, i need to know 3 things.
1. His description.
2. was he married at the time of the murder.
3. what beershop was he in before he went to the bee hive.

The problem with your main premise is that he was with a woman when he says he saw the Jews, and when he arrived other Jews were already there. So, there is no point before his arrival there where he would have been anywhere near that gateway and ceratinly not alone with Liz, and Im sure his date said the same. He left the pub with that same girl at 12, when it closed. Walked with her to the Beehive.

Cant recall the pub on Commercials name at the moment.

[DJA]

Elvis Costello.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Is anyone watching the detectives?

[DJA]

Along with a grape stalk.

[Wickerman]

If by 'fits the description best', you mean Spooner's description is closest to Gardner's reference to a Dahlia, then we are in agreement.

Alternatively, if you mean the one and only flower was most likely to be a Dahlia, regardless of descriptions, then the issue of color is still open - it could have been a red Dahlia, or it could have been a red and white Dahlia.
In that case, it would be matter of comparing the reliability of a Detective-inspector, viewing the deceased at the mortuary, with that of a man who:

• had been at the pub
• made illogical comments regarding the timing of his movements
• reported the cachous as being in the right hand, contradicting other reports
• was highly ambiguous about being him being alone or with a companion
• observed the flower under much darker conditions

Also, the notion of the flower changing at some point, and therefore of a possible period when no flower was worn, is more compatible with William Marshall's non-sighting of a flower, compared to a single Dahlia not removed before the murder.

White petals were found in the yard when they washed the blood away.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

You've likely noticed by now that all the descriptions of Stride's flower came from men. Ask any woman, men are hopeless at identifying flowers, hence the confused descriptions.
My wife tells me you wouldn't get a rose around Oct. 1st. in England, wrong climate, and Geraniums smell too bad to use as a button-hole on a jacket, besides, once you cut them, they die.
The Dahlia fits the description best, and they come with Red, with White petals.

If by 'fits the description best', you mean Spooner's description is closest to Gardner's reference to a Dahlia, then we are in agreement.

Alternatively, if you mean the one and only flower was most likely to be a Dahlia, regardless of descriptions, then the issue of color is still open - it could have been a red Dahlia, or it could have been a red and white Dahlia.
In that case, it would be matter of comparing the reliability of a Detective-inspector, viewing the deceased at the mortuary, with that of a man who:

• had been at the pub
• made illogical comments regarding the timing of his movements
• reported the cachous as being in the right hand, contradicting other reports
• was highly ambiguous about being him being alone or with a companion
• observed the flower under much darker conditions

Also, the notion of the flower changing at some point, and therefore of a possible period when no flower was worn, is more compatible with William Marshall's non-sighting of a flower, compared to a single Dahlia not removed before the murder.

[DJA]

Some people really like the smell of geraniums.Some don't.Inexpensive.

Many dahlia growers would have lifted their dahlias before a cold wet 30th September.

However, best not to argue with a female,just ask Jack.