Edward spooner

[Wickerman]

You've likely noticed by now that all the descriptions of Stride's flower came from men. Ask any woman, men are hopeless at identifying flowers, hence the confused descriptions.
My wife tells me you wouldn't get a rose around Oct. 1st. in England, wrong climate, and Geraniums smell too bad to use as a button-hole on a jacket, besides, once you cut them, they die.
The Dahlia fits the description best, and they come with Red, with White petals.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Spooner: Between half-past 12 and 1 o'clock on Sunday morning I was standing outside the Bee Hive publichouse, at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman. I had previously been in another beershop at the top of the street, and afterwards walked down. After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police." They then ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They replied, "A woman has been murdered."
...
The only means I had of fixing the time was by the closing of the publichouses. I stood at the top of the street for about five minutes, and then 25 minutes outside the publichouse. I should say it was about 25 minutes to 1 when I first went to the yard.

At what time did the publichouses close? If it were midnight, then we could possibly say that Spooner was actually standing around from just after 12:00 until just after 12:30.
So did anyone see Spooner and his young female companion, in this period?
The closest I can find is from the Illustrated Police News, Oct 6:

Wess: I left the club for home at a quarter past twelve o'clock.
...
Baxter: Did you notice anyone in the yard?
Wess: No, sir.
Baxter: Did you meet anybody in Berner-street?
Wess: I can't recollect; but as I went along Fairclough-street, close by, I noticed some men and women standing together.
Baxter: Did you see no one nearer?
Wess: No, sir.

So Wess apparently saw a group of men and women on Fairclough street, at around 12:15, but not a couple.

Did Diemschitz see the couple, standing outside the Beehive? The People, Oct 7:

When I returned to the club a man whom we met in Grove street and told about the murder lifted the woman's head, and then for the first time I saw the wound in the throat.

Wrong location, no woman.
I wonder if the discrepancies between Diemschitz and Spooner, were in part due to Louis never actually leaving Dutfield's Yard to search for police?
Apparently he had already seen quite a bit, before Spooner arrived. MA, Oct 1:

...Diemshitz entered the club by the side door higher up the court, and informed those in the concert room upstairs that something had happened in the yard. A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up. It was at once apparent that the woman was dead. The body was still warm, and the clothes were wet from the recent rain, but the heart had ceased to beat, and the stream of blood on the gutter, terminating in a hideous pool near the club door, showed but too plainly what had happened. Both ran off without delay to find a policeman...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Are you suggesting that Reid at the mortuary looked at a flower looking like this one you've posted, and thought to himself, "That would be a red rose", whereas in the darkness of Dutfield's Yard, Spooner could clearly see the flower was red and white?

What is the purpose of such a suggestion? Are you trying to discredit Reid?

[DJA]

Wikipedia.
Very common geranium.
Had that color growing in my front garden circa 1980.
Has a distinct perfume.Some like it,some don't.
Very easy to propagate.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Is that a readily available in 1888 flower, or something you searched hard for in Google images?

[DJA]

[DJA]

Maybe there had been a red and a white flower, and the white went missing at some point?

Good each way bet.
Might actually have the quinella.
Throw in the maidenhair fern for the trifecta.
Winner,winner,chicken dinner!

[Joshua Rogan]

Where would one source a red rose in Whitechapel during September 1888?

From a flower-girl?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Then perhaps Blackwell got the type right, and Reid the color.

What's interesting about Arbeter Fraint saying the flower was red, was that this was before Reid's description in the Oct 6 papers, so AF's info must have come from a club member, who witnessed it in the yard on the night.
White would obviously show up well against the dark clothing, and yet, that paper only says red.
Maybe there had been a red and a white flower, and the white went missing at some point?

Matthew Packer: I saw that she was dressed in dark clothes, looked a middle aged woman, and carried a white flower in her hand. I saw that as plain as anything could be, and I am sure I should know the woman again. I was taken today to the see the dead body of a woman lying in Golden land mortuary, but I can swear that wasn't the woman that stood at my shop window on Saturday night.

[DJA]

Where would one source a red rose in Whitechapel during September 1888?

You have pictured an unlikely type of maidenhair fern for a corsage.

My money would be on geraniums and delicate maidenhair fern as backing.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I found a couple of other references to the flower on Stride's jacket, which include detail of the color or type.

Arbeter Fraint, Oct 5: The pale face was green, the eyes tightly closed, the back hair disheveled, the neck sliced wide-open [and] bathed in blood. In one hand, the murdered woman held a bunch of grapes and in the other a box of candies. She was dressed in black: poor but clean. She wore a red flower on her breast. The doctor continued to examine her and found no other wounds other than the broad gash on her neck.

Dr Blackwell (The People, Oct 7): I noticed a bunch of geraniums and maidenhair fern on her chest.

Other papers quoted Blackwell as saying 'a bunch of flowers'.
So how do these compare to Reid and Spooner?

Inspector Reid mortuary note (Times, Oct 6): I guessed her age at 42, length 5ft. 2in. complexion pale, hair dark brown and curly. I raised an eyelid and found that her eyes were light grey; I parted her lips and found that she had lost her upper teeth in front. She had an old black skirt and an old black jacket trimmed with fur. Fastened on the right side was a small bunch of flowers, consisting of maidenhair fern and a red rose. She had two light serge petticoats, white stockings, white chemise with insertion in front, side-spring boots, and black crape bonnet. In her jacket pocket I found two pocket-handkerchiefs, a thimble, and a piece of wool on a card.

Reid is thorough and guesses her age quite accurately, so 'maidenhair fern and a red rose', is probably accurate.

Spooner: I could see that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and a red and white flower pinned on to her jacket.

Only Spooner mentions a red and white flower.
The hypothesis is that Spooner is referring to the flower he expects to see, based on an earlier sighting of Stride, that evening, when she were wearing a different flower.
This may be the dahlia referred to by John Gardner, witnessed at the Bricklayers Arm's around 11pm, and the following day at the mortuary (and thus the hypothesis applies to him too, to some extent).
Even if the flower arrangement had changed at some point in the evening, the notion that Spooner reports to the coroner what was actually the previous arrangement (due to him seeing what he expects to see), must be regarded as something of a long-shot, because it requires Spooner to have been at the same location as Stride, or at least a nearby one, earlier that evening.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The London Evening News, Oct 1, had a report which began...

At the mortuary our reporter saw three men who had their suspicions raised on Saturday night by the conduct of a man and a woman in Settles-street, Commercial-road:

One of the men spoke about the flower in Stride's jacket...

John Gardner, labourer, 11, Chapman-street, corroborated all that Best said respecting the conduct of the man and the woman at the Bricklayers' Arms, adding "before I got into the mortuary to-day (Sunday) I told you the woman had a flower in her jacket, and that she had a short jacket. Well, I have been to the mortuary, and there she was with the dahlias on the right side of her jacket. I could swear she is the woman I saw at the Bricklayers' Arms, and she has the same smile on her face now that she had then.

At the inquest, DI Reid said:

She had an old black skirt and an old black jacket trimmed with fur. Fastened on the right side was a small bunch of flowers, consisting of maidenhair fern and a red rose.

Dahlia

Maidenhair Fern

So apparently the flower had changed from when Stride was at the Bricklayer's Arms, to when she were found in Dutfield's Yard.

Edward Spooner also saw the flower:

I could see that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and a red and white flower pinned on to her jacket.

When did Spooner first see Stride that night?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Besides, Spooner didn't have a girlfriend.

Although he had been with a woman at a beershop on Settles street, earlier in the evening

[NotBlamedForNothing]

We can.

I'm surprised you haven't responded to the question posed at the end of #36.
I thought it concerned one of your key interests - when did the murder occur and when do people start accumulating in Dutfield's Yard?

[Scott Nelson]

Besides, Spooner didn't have a girlfriend.