Edward spooner

[Michael W Richards]

So can we be absolutely sure that the young man and his sweetheart was not Spooner and his lady friend?

We can.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I believe I've already demonstrated that the 'young sweethearts' could not have been Spooner and his claimed companion.
However, JR is correct about the meaning of 'bisecting thoroughfare' - that it's a street which crosses the street in question, not an intersection...

No, it would not. The thoroughfare bisecting Berner Street would be Fairclough Street. The intersection would be where the two cross each other. Two different things.
The Beehive pub is on the corner of Christian Street and Fairclough Street, so it is entirely possible for Spooner and his young lady to be both outside the Beehive and on the thoroughfare bisecting Berner Street. It's more like a hundred yards from the club, rather than fifty, mind.
Incidentally, fifty yards would put them somewhere on the south side of the board school. Just where James Brown saw a couple 15 minutes earlier.

Okay, now regarding the highlighted bit...

15 minutes earlier than what time?

Here are the relevant bits from the Echo...

girl: I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone.
girl: I met my young man at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street.

When did this occur?
Where does the girl live?

Echo: From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart.

girl: No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate.

The man going in the direction of Aldgate, must have been witnessed just prior to the couple being alerted to the commotion outside #40 Berner.
Why else would she have associated the two events?
Perhaps there was something about the man's manner, that made him memorable to her.
There is also this evidence that the couple were indeed aware of the murder, on the night...

girl: We heard nothing whatever.
Fanny: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street about 20 yards away before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

Given that the young woman lives in Berner street, she herself could hardly have missed noticing.

So getting back to the point of the initial question; at what approximate time are the young couple altered to the incident?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The woman in the Echo report and her man, took a short walk along Commercial Rd, but spent most of their time together walking up and down Berner street.
The only time they would have been on Fairclough street is when crossing the Berner/Fairclough intersection, or when briefly pausing at the board school corner.
How far from the Dutfield's Yard is that?...

Fanny: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away...

Not a 100 yards. Not 50 yards. 20 yards. That is not Spooner.

Spooner had no lady friend with him, outside the Beehive on the corner of Christian & Fairclough streets.
In fact, when he begins his trip to the yard, he is probably not on Fairclough street at all...

Louis: A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased.

This would be the right direction to head towards Mitre Square. Probably nothing, slightly intriguing.

The woman in the Echo report met her man "at the top of the street", before walking along Commercial Rd.
So before saying goodnight, they are probably back on Commercial Rd, and a little around the corner from Berner St. Maybe they are standing under a lamp.
The man appears to have been walking along Commercial Rd.

[Joshua Rogan]

Probably not.

The bisecting thoroughfare would be the intersection of Berner & Fairclough - would it not?

No, it would not. The thoroughfare bisecting Berner Street would be Fairclough Street. The intersection would be where the two cross each other. Two different things.
The Beehive pub is on the corner of Christian Street and Fairclough Street, so it is entirely possible for Spooner and his young lady to be both outside the Beehive and on the thoroughfare bisecting Berner Street. It's more like a hundred yards from the club, rather than fifty, mind.
Incidentally, fifty yards would put them somewhere on the south side of the board school. Just where James Brown saw a couple 15 minutes earlier.

[seanr]

The Echo, Oct 1:

From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart.
"We heard nothing whatever," she told a reporter this morning. "I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then." "I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate."

This would be the right direction to head towards Mitre Square. Probably nothing, slightly intriguing.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

She's lying too.

No, she's just a bit queasy...

Spooner: Would you like to come around to Berner street with me and these Jewish guys, and check out the murder?
Woman: No, not tonight, maybe some other night.
Spooner: Well I'm going. Have a safe walk home!
Woman (to herself): What a jerk.

LOL

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Probably this girl, Daily News 1 Oct;

"A young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises."

Probably not.

The bisecting thoroughfare would be the intersection of Berner & Fairclough - would it not?
Is that the corner of Christian street (where the Beehive is), or Grove street (where LD said he located ES)? Not really.

Mrs. Mortimer said: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

Prior to that from the same quote, she says: On going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates, with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm...

The man was Edward Spooner: At that time there were about 15 people in the yard, and they were all standing round the body. The majority of them appeared to be Jews. No one touched the body. One of them struck a match, and I lifted up the chin of the deceased with my hand. The chin was slightly warm.

So can we be absolutely sure that the young man and his sweetheart was not Spooner and his lady friend?
It would be nice to hear from at least one of them directly.
The Echo, Oct 1:

From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart.
"We heard nothing whatever," she told a reporter this morning. "I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then." "I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate."

[NotBlamedForNothing]

In a case where the greater majority of the records are long lost, and we rely on snippets from newspapers, is this another example of devolving into "I have questions, that can't be answered. Therefore, the witness is lying"?

Spooner might be guilty. We can only assume his story was checked out, along with other witnesses that night. But any record of these interviews are gone. How many details were on a Bobby's pocketbook that we'd collectively love to read today?

Let's have a look at some of the details we do have...

Diemschitz: I did not touch the body, but went off at once for the police. We passed several streets without meeting a policeman, and we returned without one... When I returned a man that we met in Grove-street, and who came back with us, took hold of the head, and as we lifted it up I first saw the wound in the throat.

Spooner: I stopped them and asked what was the matter, and they replied that a woman had been murdered. I thereupon proceeded down Berner-street and into Dutfield's-yard...

Spooner: I did not meet anyone as I was hastening to Berner-street, except Mr. Harris, who was coming out of his house in Tiger Bay when he heard the policeman's whistle. He came running after me.

There is no woman with Spooner.
There is some discrepancy as to where Spooner was located, though.

It's always worth exploring these things, but Spooner is as crap a suspect as they come. Don't shoehorn him into some convuluted theory.

Spooner is not my suspect, but I'll give you a clue who is; his name also starts with an 'S'
However, Spooner does play a role in my convoluted theory.

Unless, we're to believe, he lied about his companion. He lied about the pub too. He's only backed up by Mr Whippy, who was also lying. And the rest of the club. Liars too. And Schwartz? He was at Mitre Square apparently. And lying. The witnesses at Mitre Square? Lying. Packer? Now there's an honest chap, at last. Unless he was lying. Harris? Probably not lying. But can't help Spooner cover up his. Unless Harris was lying. Why not?

And that's just Berner St. Sheesh!

It's more complicated than that.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Probably this girl, Daily News 1 Oct;

"A young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises."

She's lying too.

[Joshua Rogan]

Probably this girl, Daily News 1 Oct;

"A young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises."

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

In a case where the greater majority of the records are long lost, and we rely on snippets from newspapers, is this another example of devolving into "I have questions, that can't be answered. Therefore, the witness is lying"?

Spooner might be guilty. We can only assume his story was checked out, along with other witnesses that night. But any record of these interviews are gone. How many details were on a Bobby's pocketbook that we'd collectively love to read today?

It's always worth exploring these things, but Spooner is as crap a suspect as they come. Don't shoehorn him into some convuluted theory.

Unless, we're to believe, he lied about his companion. He lied about the pub too. He's only backed up by Mr Whippy, who was also lying. And the rest of the club. Liars too. And Schwartz? He was at Mitre Square apparently. And lying. The witnesses at Mitre Square? Lying. Packer? Now there's an honest chap, at last. Unless he was lying. Harris? Probably not lying. But can't help Spooner cover up his. Unless Harris was lying. Why not?

And that's just Berner St. Sheesh!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

>Why didn't the young lady go with him, to Dutfield's Yard?<<

How do we know she didn't?

Diemschitz: A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased.

What young lady?

>Mr Harris is hardly an alibi<<

He can verify that Spooner came from the direction of Christain Street as Spooner testified.

And that's all he can do. Besides, I'm not disputing that point.

For all we know, he may have seen the girl too.

Spooner:

We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police." They ran as far as Grove- street, and then turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter, and they replied that a woman had been murdered. I thereupon proceeded down Berner-street and into Dutfield's-yard ...

I stood by the side of the body for four or five minutes, until the last witness arrived.

I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard.

When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

What girl?

And there is still the matter of a beer shop full of locals.

On Settles Street?

[drstrange169]

>Why didn't the young lady go with him, to Dutfield's Yard?<<

How do we know she didn't?

>Mr Harris is hardly an alibi<<

He can verify that Spooner came from the direction of Christain Street as Spooner testified. For all we know, he may have seen the girl too. And there is still the matter of a beer shop full of locals.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Why didn't the young lady go with him, to Dutfield's Yard?

Mr Harris is hardly an alibi - Spooner only sees him seconds before he reaches #40.
Mr Harris cannot tell us what Spooner had been doing - where, when, or with whom - prior to that moment.

[drstrange169]

It's not just the young lady, it's all the locals in the beer house and Mr. Harris as well.