Francis Hermans - Update - Solid evidence of him being in vicinity of torso murders.

[MrBarnett]

Comes up under Electoral Registers for Glasgow

Francis Hermans

1891

48 Ularemont street

Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland

Glasgow

Missionary

You’re on a roll, RJ.!

[rjpalmer]

Nice one, RJ. I saw the Smith maiden name for Kate’s mother, but didn’t twig that was also Emmeline’s.

Just as long as no one suggest Emmeline Smith went by the name Emma.

[MrBarnett]

A City Missionary would have been very much involved in saving ‘fallen’ women. And there would have been quite a few of those over in Rotherhithe.

In Spitalfields you’ll see the name Charles Pateman on dozens of Christchurch marriage certs He was a City Missionary who was instrumental in legalising many informal relationships among the doss house population.

One City Missionary was in contact with MJK I recall.

[rjpalmer]

The supposed Edinburgh wedding to DC and the Scottish POB on the census suggest there may have been some kind of a Scots connection. The census info might have come from the Marshalls who were unaware of Samuel’s French birth, but knew he had something Scottish in his background.

Comes up under Electoral Registers for Glasgow

Francis Hermans

1891

48 Ularemont street

Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland

Glasgow

Missionary

[MrBarnett]

I think Kate Marshall might be a cousin to Samuel Hermans, so I am wrong about there being no blood relationship.

John Marshall's wife was Eliza Smith, and Hermans married a Emmeline Smith; there's two sisters with those names in Highclere, Hampshire in 1861. Her name is given as Emeline Smith, rather than Emmeline.

Eliza also died, so that must have left the daughter Kate to serve as Samuel's guardian while Bluebeard globetrotted.

John Marshall

Male

18 Apr 1861

Highclere, Southampton, England

John Marshal

Eliza Smith

1596166

item 4

Nice one, RJ. I saw the Smith maiden name for Kate’s mother, but didn’t twig that was also Emmeline’s.

[Abby Normal]

so how many wives did Pastor Bluebeard have that died mysteriously?

[Abby Normal]

I think Kate Marshall might be a cousin to Samuel Hermans, so I am wrong about there being no blood relationship.

John Marshall's wife was Eliza Smith, and Hermans married a Emmeline Smith; there's two sisters with those names in Highclere, Hampshire in 1861. Her name is given as Emeline Smith, rather than Emmeline.

Eliza also died, so that must have left the daughter Kate to serve as Samuel's guardian while Bluebeard globetrotted.

John Marshall

Male

18 Apr 1861

Highclere, Southampton, England

John Marshal

Eliza Smith

1596166

item 4

Pastor Bluebeard looking more and more intriguing. "you would say anything but your prayers".

Is there any evidence he was in the navy at any point? his son samual was in the military right? was that the navy??

[MrBarnett]

The supposed Edinburgh wedding to DC and the Scottish POB on the census suggest there may have been some kind of a Scots connection. The census info might have come from the Marshalls who were unaware of Samuel’s French birth, but knew he had something Scottish in his background.

[rjpalmer]

I think Kate Marshall might be a cousin to Samuel Hermans, so I am wrong about there being no blood relationship.

John Marshall's wife was Eliza Smith, and Hermans married a Emmeline Smith; there's two sisters with those names in Highclere, Hampshire in 1861. Her name is given as Emeline Smith, rather than Emmeline.

Eliza also died, so that must have left the daughter Kate to serve as Samuel's guardian while Bluebeard globetrotted.

John Marshall

Male

18 Apr 1861

Highclere, Southampton, England

John Marshal

Eliza Smith

1596166

item 4

[MrBarnett]

I found this about Samuel, it's list him living with a Kate Marshall

Incidentally, he was living at the Half Moon Inn in Kirdford at the time. John Marshall, Kate’s father, was the publican.

[Abby Normal]

Okay I've accessed the passenger list and if it's the same one he travelled from Liverpool to New York on 8th April 1891 and I was also able to find a photo of him.

Carrie Brown was murdered in NY on April 24 1891.

[Astatine211]

"I found this about Samuel, it lists him living with a Kate Marshall"

Thanks, Astatine, That's a bit confusing His birthplace is given as Glasgow in the census, but he's clearly the same Samuel Harmans who lists his birthplace as Le Havre on his military papers. The Kate Marshall with the elderly husband John can be found living in Brighton in 1911, which is close to Lancing, West Sussex.

But they clearly weren't related by blood, so we are assuming that his mother Emeline is dead by 1901.

Which is probably not good.

Emmeline died between 1887 and November 1889. I've also read that he had a first son with Emmeline named Frank after they married who was also dead by 1890.

According to police investigators, Emmeline died or disappeared under "mysterious circumstances" I'm hoping there should be more on her death in his case file.

[rjpalmer]

"I found this about Samuel, it lists him living with a Kate Marshall"

Thanks, Astatine, That's a bit confusing His birthplace is given as Glasgow in the census, but he's clearly the same Samuel Harmans who lists his birthplace as Le Havre on his military papers. The Kate Marshall with the elderly father John can be found living in Brighton in 1911, which is close to Lancing, West Sussex.

But they clearly weren't related by blood, so we are assuming that his mother Emeline is dead by 1901.

Which is probably not good.

[MrBarnett]

Thanks, Gary. I think you mean Francis spoke?

Your Samuel Hermans looks promising. There is a slight discrepancy in the birth date 30 Dec 1887 vs. 03 Dec 1887, but this could be a dyslexic moment by the clerk.

In 1918 Samuel's next of kin is listed as Kate Marshall, Wimbeldon Villa, Lancing, Sussex, which might lead somewhere...

The Ancestry tree gives his place of birth as specifically Le Havre, but it doesn’t provide a source.

[MrBarnett]

There’s mention in some press reports of an Edinburgh marriage between Francis and a woman named Dodds.

Edit: Cobb, not Dodds. Dora Cobb.