Francis Hermans - Update - Solid evidence of him being in vicinity of torso murders.

[MrBarnett]

Emmeline Smith - First known wife - Murdered 1889
Frank Hermans - First son with ES - Murdered 1889, 8 years old at death.
Bertha Wangen - Second known wife - Murder 1891 in Minnesota - Forced ingestion of ammonia - Lips corroded.
Bertha Wangen's child - Infant from another father - Murdered 1891
Caroline Crowley - Friend of Martha's - Disappeared 1892 - Potentially dismembered
Martha Elmira Lommen - Third known wife - Murdered 1893
Francis Hermans and Martha Elmira Lommen's child - Murdered 1893
Henrietta Clawson - Servant - Murdered 1895 - Dismembered
Annie Samuelson - Servant - Murdered 1896 - Dismembered

A,

Are you saying both Frank and Emmeline were murdered in 1889?

Gary

[Elamarna]

Interesting post, but before we all get carried away, I see a few issues.

The details on the dismemberment appear sparse, but it seems only a razor and a large knife were used, which may not really fit with the reports from Hebbert on the London cases.

No details of how the bodies were dismembered, only cut up into small parts.
Was the dismemberment at the joints?
Were the joints opened up?

It seems that the dismemberment in one case was simply to allow body parts to be easily burnt.
Very different from London, where body parts were disposed of on land or in water.
On the one supposedly in the trunk, what his aim was is of course unknown, if indeed a body was ever in the trunk, which is of course far from certain.

Great research btw, and an interesting case, but I see little real connection to the Thames Torso murders.

Steve

[rjpalmer]

The term "Thames Torso Murderer" is tossed around too freely, anyway.

No one has proved there was any such person.

The medicos suggested there were similarities, but really, now many different ways are there to disarticulate a joint?

[Astatine211]

Interesting post, but before we all get carried away, I see a few issues.

The details on the dismemberment appear sparse, but it seems only a razor and scissors were used, which does not really fit with the reports from Hebbert on the London cases.

No details of how the bodies were dismembered, only cut up into small parts.
Was the dismemberment at the joints?
Were the joints opened up?

It seems that the dismemberment was simply to allow body parts to be easily burnt.
Very different from London, where body parts were disposed of on land or in water

Great research btw, and an interesting case, but I see little real connection to the Thames Torso murders.

Steve

Hi, just to answer some of the details with the case you mentioned, it is believed he used and English made large butcher knife to dismember the bodies.

How the bodies were cut up I'm unsure of yet but I'm hoping his case file should shed some more light.

As for the use of body parts, Samuelson's dismembered body was put in a wooden box he had made to take with him to Kansas, this was a few weeks before the police learnt of his murders so Francis already had plans for the body parts. There are conflicting reports of wether he left individual bundled parts at Train stations along the way or he had the wooden box directly mailed to Kansas with the dismembered body in it.

As for the burning of Clawson there are also conflicting reports on wether the dismembered body parts were destroy by the fire, or "lightly scorched" in an attempt to mask identified of the body and each part was still perfectly intact, albeit slightly charred.

I'm hoping his case file can give some clarity if I receive it on how to bodies were cut.

[Elamarna]

The term "Thames Torso Murderer" is tossed around too freely, anyway.

No one has proved there was any such person.

The medicos suggested there were similarities, but really, now many different ways are there to disarticulate a joint?

I couldn't agree more.
Fortunately there is a book due on the Torso's later in the year, which I know will address many of these issues.

Steve

[Astatine211]

This is a police drawings of the weapons thought to have been used in the murder and dismemberments.

[Elamarna]

As for the use of body parts, Samuelson's dismembered body was put in a wooden box he had made to take with him to Kansas, this was a few weeks before the police learnt of his murders so Francis already had plans for the body parts. There are conflicting reports of wether he left individual bundled parts at Train stations along the way or he had the wooden box directly mailed to Kansas with the dismembered body in it.

Important point here, is there any certain record of any body parts relating to Samuelson being located?

As for the burning of Clawson there are also conflicting reports on wether the dismembered body parts were destroy by the fire, or "lightly scorched" in an attempt to mask identified of the body and each part was still perfectly intact, albeit slightly charred.

I'm hoping his case file can give some clarity if I receive it on how to bodies were cut.

If the file provides details of how the body was cut up you may be able to argue a link.
Time will tell.

Steve

[Abby Normal]

Interesting post, but before we all get carried away, I see a few issues.

The details on the dismemberment appear sparse, but it seems only a razor and a large knife were used, which may not really fit with the reports from Hebbert on the London cases.

No details of how the bodies were dismembered, only cut up into small parts.
Was the dismemberment at the joints?
Were the joints opened up?

It seems that the dismemberment in one case was simply to allow body parts to be easily burnt.
Very different from London, where body parts were disposed of on land or in water.
On the one in the trunk, what his aim was is of course unknown.
Are there details of the actual cuts and dismemberment?

Great research btw, and an interesting case, but I see little real connection to the Thames Torso murders.

Steve

youve got to be kidding el.

a known post mortem type serial killer dismemberer who was in London during timeframe of torsoman?

Hermans killed servant girls (torsoman undoubtedly had a bolt hole and cart-he had money and means and more than likely rused the women to it by means of offer of money for work-be it sex work or otherwise).
Had a medical background.
performed and abortion on one of his wives (jackson anybody?)
worked as city missionary in London-would have given him alot of access to unfortunates
Post mortem mutilation through dismemberment in whcih he bundled up parts in parcels (like torsoman)
Had no issue attracting and rusing women (which torsoman of course also did).
Police thought he was going to move body/parts in a trunk to perhaps discard "along the way"
was never apprehended.

The details on the dismemberment appear sparse, but it seems only a razor and a large knife were used, which may not really fit with the reports from Hebbert on the London cases.

a razor and knives were found in the furnace.

No details of how the bodies were dismembered, only cut up into small parts.
Was the dismemberment at the joints?
Were the joints opened up?

It seems that the dismemberment in one case was simply to allow body parts to be easily burnt.
Very different from London, where body parts were disposed of on land or in water.
On the one in the trunk, what his aim was is of course unknown.
Are there details of the actual cuts and dismemberment?

minutia ad absurdam el. they were dismembered-anymore detailed similarities is just a bonus.
re trunk-Police thought he was going to move body/parts in the trunk to perhaps discard "along the way".

cmon el dont be such a wet blanket! lets see what people find on him and if he can be ruled out by anything-like he actually was NOT in London at the time of torso murders.

Until then he looks pretty good.

[Elamarna]

This is a police drawings of the weapons thought to have been used in the murder and dismemberments.

Thank you.
Not sure those are sufficient for the cuts in the London cases.

[Abby Normal]

The term "Thames Torso Murderer" is tossed around too freely, anyway.

No one has proved there was any such person.

The medicos suggested there were similarities, but really, now many different ways are there to disarticulate a joint?

well the police, drs at the time thought it was all by one man as do the modern experts. dismemberment was rare at the time, parts were found in same general area, they were left in weird places.

of course no one Proved it. no one has proved there was a one man as the ripper either. how do you "prove" something like this anyway-an unknown serial killer never caught? thats diary defender logic.

I disagree completely rj and surprised you would post something like this.

[Abby Normal]

I couldn't agree more.
Fortunately there is a book due on the Torso's later in the year, which I know will address many of these issues.

Steve

hi el
what book? by whom?

[Elamarna]

youve got to be kidding el.

Not at all Abbey

a known post mortem type serial killer dismemberer who was in London during timeframe of torsoman?

It is far from certain there was a siingle Torsoman.
Dismemberer can cover many things.
Are the methods used and the cuts similar?

Hermans killed servant girls (torsoman undoubtedly had a bolt hole and cart-he had money and means and more than likely rused the women to it by means of offer of money for work-be it sex work or otherwise).

Speculation that there was a single torso man, I know it's popular to claim so these days, but it's far from proven.
Have you considered that in some cases the bolt hole and means of transport could be a boat rather than a cart.

Had a medical background.
performed and abortion on one of his wives (jackson anybody?)
worked as city missionary in London-would have given him alot of access to unfortunates.

Interesting, but hardly conclusive,

Post mortem mutilation through dismemberment in whcih he bundled up parts in parcels (like torsoman)

To take them to burn in a furnace, not to distribute around town, or dump in a river.

Again you are obviously convinced there was a serial killer, in London doing so, I am far from that.

Had no issue attracting and rusing women (which torsoman of course also did).

Assumption and speculation Abby, given that only Jackson is identified we surely can't make that claim.

Police thought he was going to move body/parts in a trunk to perhaps discard "along the way"
was never apprehended.

Were any of those body parts ever found, I can find no conclusive evidence of such.
Thats why I have asked that question.

a razor and knives were found in the furnace.

Yes, I am not sure they match the cuts and methods used in london

minutia ad absurdam el. they were dismembered-anymore detailed similarities is just a bonus.

Not at all, if the methods used are not similar, it surely argues against the same perpetrator.

re trunk-Police thought he was going to move body/parts in the trunk to perhaps discard "along the way".

I have asked, if there is any actual evidence of such, rather than police speculation.

cmon el dont be such a wet blanket! lets see what people find on him and if he can be ruled out by anything-like he actually was NOT in London at the time of torso murders.

Until then he looks pretty good.

We will disagree, the older I get, birthday last week, the more I want solid facts rather than endless maybes and possibles.

I see significant differences, and am far from convinced of a single hand in London.

New book on Thames Torso's from Mango later in the year. That may I think be a game changer on the Torso's.

Hope you are well btw.

Steve

[Elamarna]

Duplicate

[Elamarna]

hi el
what book? by whom?

From Mango, by Suzie Huntingdon. Not sure title. But covers from 73 to turn of century

Steve

[rjpalmer]

I disagree completely rj and surprised you would post something like this.

By all means go your own way, Abby, but this is not merely a throwaway idea on my part.

London was one of the world's largest and most populated cities. It would have been mighty strange if there weren't cases like this in London in the 1870s and 80s. Every other major world city had them.

But don't only look at the unsolved 'torso' cases and think you have a mystery on your hands. Look at the solved ones and you'll see a pattern.

You'll see domestic murders committed in crowded districts, where the perpetrator is forced to smuggle the body out of his lodgings.

Or you'll find botched abortion cases where the woman is put in a cart, sometimes in two pieces, and thrown in the local river.

That several such cases happen in any given city is not proof they are related, though I acknowledge some of them could be.

One thing that worries me about the medicos is that they are always keen to claim the dismemberer showed no anatomical skill.

But they would say that, wouldn't they?

If a doctor botches an illegal abortion and disposes of the body, is he going to advertise his skill by performing a perfect amputation?