Francis Hermans - Update - Solid evidence of him being in vicinity of torso murders.

[Astatine211]

Also I looked into the 1917 arrest and supposedly Salt Lake Police received a telegram about it so it should be in case file if true.

[MrBarnett]

Even better if he was staying and occasionally working in London on his own.

Ideally he’d want a bolt hole in SW London.

I saw something about the Le Havre Sailor’s Home struggling with debts in the 1880s/90s, but I can’t find it again. It may have had nothing to do with your guy, but who knows?

[Astatine211]

Astatine.

Do you know when, exactly, Hermans was in Glasgow with Emmeline? Her death notice in your clip above seems to indicate she died in Glasgow Nov. 16, 1889. Also, how old was Emmeline? Have you determined that yet?

Emmeline was 32 when she was murdered.

[jerryd]

Emmeline was 32 when she was murdered.

Thank you. Are you thinking she was one of the torso victims?

[Astatine211]

Thank you. Are you thinking she was one of the torso victims?

At the start I thought it was possible but now it seems very unlikely, however, it seems her family only found out about her death in a newspaper article published in November 1889 and I don't believe their was a funeral of any sort which to me seems quite suspicious.

[jerryd]

At the start I thought it was possible but now it seems very unlikely, however, it seems her family only found out about her death in a newspaper article published in November 1889 and I don't believe their was a funeral of any sort which to me seems quite suspicious.

Yes, I wonder when she was last seen alive by friends or family. It is also worth noting that Dr. Hibbert stated the Pinchin Street torso victim had not borne children. That would have been the closest torso death near her own death date in November 1889.

[Abby Normal]

In May 1887 he was definitely in London, in December 1887 he was in Le Havre, then in November 1889 he was in Glasgow and in early April 1891 he was in Liverpool.

He definitely traveled around a lot!

thanks Ast
well none of this rules him out for any of the torso murders so far.

[MrBarnett]

In May 1887 he was definitely in London, in December 1887 he was in Le Havre, then in November 1889 he was in Glasgow and in early April 1891 he was in Liverpool.

He definitely traveled around a lot!

How do we know he was in Le Havre in December, 1887 or in Glasgow in November, 1889?

[Astatine211]

How do we know he was in Le Havre in December, 1887 or in Glasgow in November, 1889?

I assumed he was there due to Samuel supposedly being born there in December 1887 and it being mentioned him and his wife lived in Glasgow before he murdered her but there are a number of conflicting sources so it could easily not be 100% accurate.

[rjpalmer]

Here's one for Kattrup.

It was reported in Salt Lake in May 1902 that Hermans may have been hiding out in Copenhagen.

[Kattrup]

Here's one for Kattrup.

It was reported in Salt Lake in May 1902 that Hermans may have been hiding out in Copenhagen.

Thanks RJ I'll look into it

[Fisherman]

Having taken a look at this thread, Iīd say that Francis Hermans is quite an interesting character. What I would not say is that he is a very likely contender for the role of the Thames Torso killer, although I would like to have more information on a few parameters before I can be more certain of it.

What we seem to have here is the kind of dismemberment killer that the Victorians were aware of: the kind who tried to hide a crime by way of dismemberment. The Torso killer seems to me to be an aggressive dismemberer - a man whose motivation was the deeds themselves, a man who liked cutting into flesh.

In the dismemberment cases, Hermans seems to have followed the schedule poisoning to death - dismemberment - burning the remains, and that is not at all very much alike the Torso killer who dismembered in very quick succession after the murder - presumably because his murders were all about aquiring a body to cut into and take apart (if that reminds you of another Victorian killer, I congratulate you on your clear-sightedness).

The Torso killer was apparently not into hiding what he had done - instead he put it on display all over London, the way narcissistic killers regularly do. Turning his victims to ash does not seem to have been any preference at all in his case.

Abby makes the remark that Hermans parcelled up the body parts, just like the Torso man did. But why would Hermans do that? Why not just tuck the parts into the fire? What possible use could packaging the parts in cloth and paper have to him?

Any guess?

Exactly - it seems he wanted the fire to be as powerful as possible in order to clear away the evidence as thoroughly as he could - and that makes his packaging of the body parts another business altogether when compared to the Torso killers packages.

We must also weigh in that although we do not have the identities of the Torso killers victims in more than one case, that case is one where a prostitute lost her life. In Hermansī case, we have people in his close company dying, wives, mistresses and their kids. Domestic affairs, therefore.

One murder series of a domestic character where there was a will to hide the victims and where they were not killed swiftly and immediately afterwards dismembered, and another series where the victims seem to have been prostitutes, where the parts were not hidden away but instead allowed to float ashore along the banks of the Thames and where the victims seem to have been killed by having their throats cut (as witnessed about by Phillips in the Pinchin Street case) and thereafter typically dismembered immediately afterwards.

To me, the two series are very different.

The articles speak of Hermans "hacking" the bodies to pieces in the tub, but I would like to know just how roughly or cleanly they were taken apart.

[Abby Normal]

Having taken a look at this thread, Iīd say that Francis Hermans is quite an interesting character. What I would not say is that he is a very likely contender for the role of the Thames Torso killer, although I would like to have more information on a few parameters before I can be more certain of it.

What we seem to have here is the kind of dismemberment killer that the Victorians were aware of: the kind who tried to hide a crime by way of dismemberment. The Torso killer seems to me to be an aggressive dismemberer - a man whose motivation was the deeds themselves, a man who liked cutting into flesh.

In the dismemberment cases, Hermans seems to have followed the schedule poisoning to death - dismemberment - burning the remains, and that is not at all very much alike the Torso killer who dismembered in very quick succession after the murder - presumably because his murders were all about aquiring a body to cut into and take apart (if that reminds you of another Victorian killer, I congratulate you on your clear-sightedness).

The Torso killer was apparently not into hiding what he had done - instead he put it on display all over London, the way narcissistic killers regularly do. Turning his victims to ash does not seem to have been any preference at all in his case.

Abby makes the remark that Hermans parcelled up the body parts, just like the Torso man did. But why would Hermans do that? Why not just tuck the parts into the fire? What possible use could packaging the parts in cloth and paper have to him?

Any guess?

Exactly - it seems he wanted the fire to be as powerful as possible in order to clear away the evidence as thoroughly as he could - and that makes his packaging of the body parts another business altogether when compared to the Torso killers packages.

We must also weigh in that although we do not have the identities of the Torso killers victims in more than one case, that case is one where a prostitute lost her life. In Hermansī case, we have people in his close company dying, wives, mistresses and their kids. Domestic affairs, therefore.

One murder series of a domestic character where there was a will to hide the victims and where they were not killed swiftly and immediately afterwards dismembered, and another series where the victims seem to have been prostitutes, where the parts were not hidden away but instead allowed to float ashore along the banks of the Thames and where the victims seem to have been killed by having their throats cut (as witnessed about by Phillips in the Pinchin Street case) and thereafter typically dismembered immediately afterwards.

To me, the two series are very different.

The articles speak of Hermans "hacking" the bodies to pieces in the tub, but I would like to know just how roughly or cleanly they were taken apart.

hey fish
i was wondering whenyou were going to jump in here! lol.

well they found razors and knives in the furnace so theres a clue to how they were taken apart perhaps.
you make good points but the only thing ill say is whats more similar? torsoman to the ripper or torsoman to pastor bluebeard?
do you see the point im trying to make?
if me and you are going to say the similarities outweigh the differences between torsoman and the ripper, then we cant turn around and say the differences outweigh the similarities between two dismemberers!
anyway i do see the points you are making but im going to wait and see what else turns up on Pastor Bluebeard. it looks like he may be off geographically for torsoman but lets see what the researchers come up with.

btw still waiting for your book! grrrrr. it better be here by Friday or heads are gonna roll! pun intended

[Fisherman]

hey fish
i was wondering whenyou were going to jump in here! lol.

well they found razors and knives in the furnace so theres a clue to how they were taken apart perhaps.

Any dismemberment requires some sort of sharp implement to get the job done, right? In Hermans case, no finetoothed saw played a role. In the Torso murders, it was always used, from 1873 and forward. So that looks like a radical difference to me.

you make good points but the only thing ill say is whats more similar? torsoman to the ripper or torsoman to pastor bluebeard?

Torsoman to the Ripper. There is nothing in that coupling that urges us to drop the idea as long as we accept that a killer may dismember in some cases and not in others, depending on the circumstances. With Hermans, we must accept him going from prostitute killings to domestic ones, from swift death followed by immediate dismemberment to posioning his victims to death and only thereafter dismembering them, from leaving the body parts on display to incinerating them and hiding them away and so on. Its much more of a stretch to me.

do you see the point im trying to make?

Yes, your point is that two dismemberment killers must be more alike - or at least as alike - as an eviscerator/mutilator and a dismemberment killer. But that point is much dissolved by how the Ripper tried to decapitate (= an effort to dismember) and how the Torso killer mutilated and eviscerated.
It is only on the surface of things that the two dismemberers look like people of the same ilk, if you ask me. Hermans was a Landru type, the Torso killer was nothing of the sort.

if me and you are going to say the similarities outweigh the differences between torsoman and the ripper, then we cant turn around and say the differences outweigh the similarities between two dismemberers!

Of course not! Two dismemberers in the same geographical area and in time frames that may connect must be regarded as possibly being one and the same, just like how two eviscerators under the same circumstances must be looked upon in the same way. However, eviscerations are rarer than dismemberments and the time frame consistency between the Ripper and the Torso killer is much greater than what is the case for Hermans visavi the Torso killer. He participates in the race, but he can never win it as it stands. Not in my view, at least.

anyway i do see the points you are making but im going to wait and see what else turns up on Pastor Bluebeard. it looks like he may be off geographically for torsoman but lets see what the researchers come up with.

That sounds like a wise strategy. I would also like to learn more about Hermans, not least about how he did his cutting.

btw still waiting for your book! grrrrr. it better be here by Friday or heads are gonna roll! pun intended

Well, we canīt have that, can we? Letīs hope it arrives as promised!

[Abby Normal]

Well, we canīt have that, can we? Letīs hope it arrives as promised!

thanks fish. looking forward to it!