Stride..a victim?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Prostitute (full or part time).......tick
Throat cut...............................tick
Mutilation................................No
In the right area.......................tick
At the right time period.............tick
No robbery..............................tick

And we have a plausible possible explanation for the ‘no.’

And we might ask ‘what would a killer intent on mutilation do if he was prevented from doing so?’ I’d suggest that he might go looking for another victim?

'Throat cut' is too broad.

'In the right area' is too ambiguous. Whitechapel ✓ Berner street ✘

'No robbery' - robbery would have to be common enough to include.

Changing the criteria a little could give a much lower score.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Also, didn't Smith say that he "went" to Berner Street at 1am, not that he arrived there then, or was in Berner Street by then?

Love,

Caz
X

Good question.

It could mean one of two things.

One: returned to Berner Street at 1am

Two: (from the starting point of the beat,) headed to Berner Street at 1am

The difference can be seen in this map (from Smith's Beat)...



The easterly travel from Gower's-walk (the starting point) to Berner street would take a couple of minutes (approximately).

The later Smith gets to Berner street, the later he was last there (all other things being equal).
If he arrives at the top of the street at 1:02, instead of 1:00, he last enters Berner street at about 12:35, and exits the street a few minutes later.
It is on the northerly leg that Smith sees Stride and parcel man.
By the time Fanny Mortimer is outside, these two are both out of her sight, so if we have Fanny getting to her doorstep at 12:40 (so not quite the immediately suggested in the Evening News, Oct 1), she is on her balcony until about 12:50.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

IF THE KILLER WAS INTERRUPTED WE COULD EXPECT NO EVIDENCE FOR THAT INTERRUPTION.

By definition, we would expect the victim to be in some state between throat cut and fully ripped, inclusive of the first but not last condition.

If the killer had only intended to cut throat, the victim would of course be in the first of many states compatible with interruption.

The chances of a mutilation intending killer being interrupted at the only throat cut intended state, are therefore low but not zero.

[Herlock Sholmes]

'Throat cut' is too broad.

'In the right area' is too ambiguous. Whitechapel ✓ Berner street ✘

'No robbery' - robbery would have to be common enough to include.

Changing the criteria a little could give a much lower score.

So robbery would have to be common enough to include but we can dismiss location because the other murders didn’t occur in Berner Street? Come on. We could only express doubts if she’d been killed 5 miles away for example.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Good question.

It could mean one of two things.

One: returned to Berner Street at 1am

Two: (from the starting point of the beat,) headed to Berner Street at 1am

The difference can be seen in this map (from Smith's Beat)...



The easterly travel from Gower's-walk (the starting point) to Berner street would take a couple of minutes (approximately).

The later Smith gets to Berner street, the later he was last there (all other things being equal).
If he arrives at the top of the street at 1:02, instead of 1:00, he last enters Berner street at about 12:35, and exits the street a few minutes later.
It is on the northerly leg that Smith sees Stride and parcel man.
By the time Fanny Mortimer is outside, these two are both out of her sight, so if we have Fanny getting to her doorstep at 12:40 (so not quite the immediately suggested in the Evening News, Oct 1), she is on her balcony until about 12:50.

Or, if we accept that PC Smith was far more likely to have been correct on timing then Fanny could have been on her doorstep from 12.35 until 12.45. We also have to remember that, although beats were regulated, they could vary in actual times if the officer had to deal with an issue. Breaking up a drunken fight for example could add 5 minutes or more to the time.

[Herlock Sholmes]

By definition, we would expect the victim to be in some state between throat cut and fully ripped, inclusive of the first but not last condition.

If the killer had only intended to cut throat, the victim would of course be in the first of many states compatible with interruption.

The chances of a mutilation intending killer being interrupted at the only throat cut intended state, are therefore low but not zero.

No we couldn’t expect that.

This is hypothetical of course because none of us know exactly what happened but, if the killer was interrupted/disturbed just as he’d cut her throat, then we would just see a woman with her throat cut.

Ill discuss any point but this is black and white and I can’t see why it’s even being questioned? We couldn’t expect any evidence of interruption if the killer was interrupted just after he’d cut her throat or even as he was cutting it.

[FrankO]

Michael can move the pony and cart around like pieces on a chess board; suggest that Mrs M had defective hearing; and accuse Louis D of trying to pervert the course of justice, but the fact remains that he did arrive, and he did discover Stride, very shortly after her killer must have been there, cutting her throat.

Exactly, Caz, and moving the time of her discovery from, approximately, 12:40 am to about half a minute after 1 am wouldn't change much, if anything at all. The murderer still got away unseen and the police still did a rather thorough search of the whole club, the whole yard and all the members who'd remained in the yard until PC Lamb arrived there.

All the best,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

Exactly, Caz, and moving the time of her discovery from, approximately, 12:40 am to about half a minute after 1 am wouldn't change much, if anything at all. The murderer still got away unseen and the police still did a rather thorough search of the whole club, the whole yard and all the members who'd remained in the yard until PC Lamb arrived there.

All the best,
Frank

It’s a good point but I’m guessing that others might say that the gap could be explained by being the time taken to come up with the plot?

[Trevor Marriott]

It’s a good point but I’m guessing that others might say that the gap could be explained by being the time taken to come up with the plot?

The only plot here is with the ones who have lost it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

The only plot here is with the ones who have lost it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Michael W Richards]

No stupid idea is valid simply because a majority of idiots believe in it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You seem to believe that you are cleverer and more astute than everyone else Michael. Have you ever considered trying to take over the world?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So robbery would have to be common enough to include but we can dismiss location because the other murders didn’t occur in Berner Street? Come on. We could only express doubts if she’d been killed 5 miles away for example.

I meant that prostitutes were rarely if ever seen in Berner street, and on that basis we would not expect JtR to go hunting for pray there.

My bad - I was ambiguous.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Or, if we accept that PC Smith was far more likely to have been correct on timing then Fanny could have been on her doorstep from 12.35 until 12.45.

Smith was correct, as far as I can tell.
However, if 'went to' means 'proceeded to' then he gets to the top of Berner a little after 1am rather than right on 1, and we have to allow for that.
This interpretation also hints there was a clock at the corner of Gower's Walk and Commercial Road - that being the reason Smith knows he went to Berner street at 1am.

There is another reason for supposing Smith gets to the top of Berner a little later than 1...

I did not notice any disturbance, and heard no cries of "Police."

So he must have been a significant distance from Berner street when this occurred.

If Smith passes up Berner street to Comm. Rd at 12:35 (as commonly supposed), then Fanny cannot get to her doorstep at the same time, for an obvious reason - she would see Stride and parcel man standing a few meters away on the other side of the street! So there must be a delay after Smith goes by.
In my 'tweaked' version, Smith exits Berner at about 12:39, and Fanny goes outside at about 12:40.
Even with that short delay, the pair seen by Smith appear to have gone out of sight very quickly, and he did not see them on the southern-leg - so they arrived at the point he sees them at when he is reaching Fairclough street. See how close that is?

We also have to remember that, although beats were regulated, they could vary in actual times if the officer had to deal with an issue. Breaking up a drunken fight for example could add 5 minutes or more to the time.

Is there anything in Smith's testimony to indicate that his last round before going to the yard, was outside the normal parameters?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

No we couldn’t expect that.

This is hypothetical of course because none of us know exactly what happened but, if the killer was interrupted/disturbed just as he’d cut her throat, then we would just see a woman with her throat cut.

Ill discuss any point but this is black and white and I can’t see why it’s even being questioned? We couldn’t expect any evidence of interruption if the killer was interrupted just after he’d cut her throat or even as he was cutting it.

So if we're talking about 'interrupted at the very moment he cuts her throat' - then you're probably right.

What I meant was that an interruption could conceivably occur at any point in the Ripper's 'work', and therefore the chances of it occurring right when it did, are low.
In other words, if she looks exactly like she would had the killer had no intention of going on with it, we couldn't tell what is the case, but what are the chances of each possibility?