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Stride..a victim?

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  • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    An interesting thought and one which I have covered in my book

    On my travels, I was approached by a lady She told me the story that her great, great-grandmother was walking home with several other women the night of the Stride murder in Berner Street, and they heard all the commotion following the discovery of the body. They looked up and saw a male shinning across the rooftops. This is an interesting story because if it is believed that if the killer was disturbed carrying out this murder and therefore he could have made his quick and hasty getaway down to the bottom of Dutfield’s Yard and up and across the rooftops.

    I have no idea as to the layout as to whether or not this could have taken place as described or not

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
    Cheers Trevor. Interesting story. We tend to assume that the killer must have left by the gates but if he found himself trapped I wondered if he could have gotten away via the back. This might have been a desperate act and he was lucky to find a way out or might it strengthen Michael's idea that it was a club member who might have known that he could escape that way?
    Regards

    Herlock




    “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
    “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
    “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
    “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
    “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

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    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
      On the subject of Dutfield's Yard. Would it have been possible for the killer to have escaped from within the yard? Over a fence for example. I'm unsure of the layout beyond the yard.
      There are no fences that lead directly out of the yard, eg into an alley or street, all the walls back onto at least one other building or enclosed yard*. However, if you were an early exponent of parkour, or a Victorian ninja, then it might be possible to escape across rooftops. I do like the idea of Trevor's tale, but there seems little to be gained going along the taller rooftops visible from Berner Street. The easiest looking escape would probably be onto the one-storey sack factory roof at the end of the yard, then the adjoined stable roof of the London General Omnibus Co., and from there down into Batty Gardens.
      Whether that would actually have been feasible, or leave any detectable traces or broken tiles, is up for debate.

      ​​​​​​​*it may have been possible to exit those other yards through buildings, if they were unlocked as at Hanbury Street. Also the LGO yard was another possible exit, though this was gated and probably watched too.

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      • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

        There are no fences that lead directly out of the yard, eg into an alley or street, all the walls back onto at least one other building or enclosed yard*. However, if you were an early exponent of parkour, or a Victorian ninja, then it might be possible to escape across rooftops. I do like the idea of Trevor's tale, but there seems little to be gained going along the taller rooftops visible from Berner Street. The easiest looking escape would probably be onto the one-storey sack factory roof at the end of the yard, then the adjoined stable roof of the London General Omnibus Co., and from there down into Batty Gardens.
        Whether that would actually have been feasible, or leave any detectable traces or broken tiles, is up for debate.

        ​​​​​​​*it may have been possible to exit those other yards through buildings, if they were unlocked as at Hanbury Street. Also the LGO yard was another possible exit, though this was gated and probably watched too.
        Unfortunately we do not know for sure whether on not there were any means of escape at the bottom of Dutfields Yard. and if there was where was it, and where did it lead to.

        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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        • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

          Unfortunately we do not know for sure whether on not there were any means of escape at the bottom of Dutfields Yard. and if there was where was it, and where did it lead to.
          Not for sure, no. But contemporary maps do give a reasonable idea of the yard and it's surroundings. Which is why I think it's possible for an athletic killer to have made his escape via the single storey roof. Right next to this was a stabl which some reconstructions show with stairs up to the hayloft* above, so it's possible that the roof was accessible from there without even any strenuous climbing. Or not.

          * this may have been the loft which Reid mentions searching, and was used for storing sacks.

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          • Click image for larger version  Name:	Berner Street May 1899.jpg Views:	0 Size:	171.7 KB ID:	747033 Click image for larger version  Name:	Berner Street etc.jpg Views:	0 Size:	252.3 KB ID:	747034 Click image for larger version  Name:	41 Berner Street Stride JTR Goad Map.jpg Views:	0 Size:	130.7 KB ID:	747035
            Attached Files
            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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            • Much obliged, Dave

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              • Dutfield's Yard Berner Street - YouTube

                We are very,very fortunate to have "richardh"
                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                • He is a bit of a hero :-)

                  It's a work of art. Of course, he appears to have made the rookie mistake of using the later map showing the stairs....so if you're reading Richard, if you could just redo the whole thing using the earlier 1890 Goad map (the pink one above) I'd upgrade you to Total Hero. You know you want to!

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                  • It is obviously not supposed to be 1888.
                    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                    • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                      Maybe Stride turned her back to the killer and made for the gates, making him grab the scarf from behind. We just canīt know.
                      The evidence fits such a scenario very well, Christer. Perhaps she’d been standing with her back to the wall with her killer in front of her, pressing her on her shoulders, especially her right one, to prevent her from leaving, then he let her leave anyway and grabbed her by the scarf with his left hand as she’d turned towards the gates, pulling her backwards and making her spin as and end up on the ground on her left side. But you’re right, we just can’t know.

                      This very much belongs to the picture, and if we did not have the Eddowes murder on the same night and in that location, I think you will have to agree that it would have graded down the viability of the suggestion that Stride was killed by the Ripper. And that is as it should be, if you ask me. The link to Eddowes is of significant importance when we weigh it all up.
                      It is as it should be. And while you and others give a lot of weight to this evidence, I give the Ripper’s desire to mutilate a lot of weight. Looking at the Stride murder ‘with those glasses on’, I have doubts as to whether the Ripper would have found Berner Street and surroundings a place, at that hour of the night at least, that would allow him to satisfy his dark needs to begin with. And those doubts are reinforced by the difference in the initial attack between Stride’s case and the other outdoors cases. There you have it, that’s my stance, although I’m not married to those doubts. I would be perfectly at peace if it ever turned out that Stride was murdered by the Ripper. I just have my doubts.

                      "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                      Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

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                      • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
                        [/COLOR][/FONT][/I][/B][/FONT]The evidence fits such a scenario very well, Christer. Perhaps she’d been standing with her back to the wall with her killer in front of her, pressing her on her shoulders, especially her right one, to prevent her from leaving, then he let her leave anyway and grabbed her by the scarf with his left hand as she’d turned towards the gates, pulling her backwards and making her spin as and end up on the ground on her left side. But you’re right, we just can’t know.

                        It is as it should be. And while you and others give a lot of weight to this evidence, I give the Ripper’s desire to mutilate a lot of weight. Looking at the Stride murder ‘with those glasses on’, I have doubts as to whether the Ripper would have found Berner Street and surroundings a place, at that hour of the night at least, that would allow him to satisfy his dark needs to begin with. And those doubts are reinforced by the difference in the initial attack between Stride’s case and the other outdoors cases. There you have it, that’s my stance, although I’m not married to those doubts. I would be perfectly at peace if it ever turned out that Stride was murdered by the Ripper. I just have my doubts.
                        For what it's worth Frank any doubts that I have are location-based too.
                        Regards

                        Herlock




                        “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                        “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                        “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                        “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                        “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

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                        • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
                          [/COLOR][/FONT][/I][/B][/FONT]The evidence fits such a scenario very well, Christer. Perhaps she’d been standing with her back to the wall with her killer in front of her, pressing her on her shoulders, especially her right one, to prevent her from leaving, then he let her leave anyway and grabbed her by the scarf with his left hand as she’d turned towards the gates, pulling her backwards and making her spin as and end up on the ground on her left side. But you’re right, we just can’t know.

                          It is as it should be. And while you and others give a lot of weight to this evidence, I give the Ripper’s desire to mutilate a lot of weight. Looking at the Stride murder ‘with those glasses on’, I have doubts as to whether the Ripper would have found Berner Street and surroundings a place, at that hour of the night at least, that would allow him to satisfy his dark needs to begin with. And those doubts are reinforced by the difference in the initial attack between Stride’s case and the other outdoors cases. There you have it, that’s my stance, although I’m not married to those doubts. I would be perfectly at peace if it ever turned out that Stride was murdered by the Ripper. I just have my doubts.
                          Thatīs as fair an answer as anybody could ask for, Frank. I note that Herlock chips in and says that whatever doubt he has are - just as in your case - location-based. As you know, the suspect I have in mind had his mother staying a stoneīs throw away from Berner Street, and he would likewise have had his old watering holes in this exact vicinity. And it was a Saturday night.
                          Of course, that plays a role in my thinking; if we reason that the killer would have needed to be tipsy to go for a kill in Dutfieldīs Yard, then what we have is a description of a tipsy man having a physical altercation with Stride some little time before she was killed - and a carman who may have done the rounds in the local pubs. To me, it makes perfect sense, but to anybody who has not seen the light ( ), it could of course be another story.

                          Thanks, anyway, for your post, it was a refreshing read.
                          Last edited by Fisherman; 11-23-2020, 11:47 AM.

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                          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                            I'll take the risk of sounding like a broken record Michael but you're asking for something that wouldn't necessarily exist. If Stride's killer was interrupted after he'd cut her throat then there wouldn't be any evidence pointing to an intention to mutilate. A raised skirt has been mentioned but this wouldn't have occurred if the interruption occurred just after or concurrently with the throat-cutting.

                            The 'evidence'' tells us that this was a period in time where a series of murders were occurring. These took place over a period of just over 2 months (7 if you include Tabram) within a small geographical area. The victims were women who were either full or part-time prostitutes who had their throats cut and were mutilated. Tabram is included by many and yet she wasn't mutilated but the killer spent time stabbing her 39 times. Why isn't she categorically eliminated? Because we accept the possibility that this might have been the killers first time which might explain the difference. So if we have Stride, a known prostitute (yes I realised that she worked too) murdered within the series why is it less valid to ask if there might also have been a reason, like Tabram, for the lack of mutilation?

                            Now if Stride had been discovered in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street with no mutilations then the case for interruption would be considerably weakened of course (although still not dismiss able) But with Stride we have Diemschutz and his cart at the right spot at the right time to potentially account for interruption.

                            I think that any police investigation today, unless they discovered some medical or forensic evidence, would have to consider it very possible or likely that Stride was killed by the man that killed Nichols and Chapman. There are no definite's and it's entirely possible that this wasn't a ripper killing but we can't be certain either way but the circumstances lead us to that belief.
                            For my sensibilities Herlock .. Stride to have been killed by a Ripper and not Ripped means he didnt have time. An interruption, he took a second to light a smoke, stood and watched her die...whatever the delay or impromptu interruption, it would be impossible to justify linking Stride with Jack unless that segmented attack happened. Thing is, as Ive been saying oh so many times lately, there is no foundation in the known evidence for a theory of an interrupted attack. Interruption....she was flipped onto her back, her skirts are raised, any sort of evidence he even touched her again after he lets go of her scarf...none,...that he had a smoke, I dont recall seeing Mrs Mortimer seeing smoke from the entrance to the yard, nor do I see cigarette butts' found during the crime scene investigation,...he stood and watched her die? who knows about that...there is no legtimate sighting of Liz Stride alive after 12:35, and Fanny..... at her door off and on until fully on at 12:50, never sees anyone but the young couple and Goldstein. Leon also must have been passing those gates while the killer was with Liz. So, from 12:35 until she is found...which if you believe 4 corroborated stories both in times and details, takes place around 1240-12:45. That leaves from 5-10 minutes, or up to 25 minutes if you choose to believe Louis's times. Its estimated that in Mitre Square the killer if seen with Kate by Lawende has around 7-8 minutes max to do all he does there. I will note here that its possible the cut was made at approximately the same time as the 4 witnesses say they became aware of it, and perhaps 10 minutes before Goldstein passes.

                            7-8 minutes, he decimates Kate, steals an organ, cuts colon and cloth, nicks her face while slicing her nose, packs up and leaves...all within 7-8 minutes maximum.

                            Now, look at the Stride case. The killer has between 5 and 25 minutes when Liz is out of sight. Look what he accomplished. He grabbed her scarf, twisted it and pulled it making her bent and off balance, slides a knife under her chin, and drops the scarf. 2 seconds.

                            If he uses that time to play cards, it would have to have been Solitaire.
                            Last edited by Michael W Richards; 11-23-2020, 11:56 AM.
                            Michael Richards

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                            • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                              So, from 12:35 until she is found...which if you believe 4 corroborated stories both in times and details, takes place around 1240-12:45. That leaves from 5-10 minutes, or up to 25 minutes if you choose to believe Louis's times.
                              Joseph Lave is a bit of a problem...

                              I was in the club yard this (Sunday) morning about twenty minutes to one. I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one, and during that time no one came into the yard. I should have seen anybody moving about there.

                              I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, though.
                              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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                              • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                                Joseph Lave is a bit of a problem...

                                I was in the club yard this (Sunday) morning about twenty minutes to one. I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one, and during that time no one came into the yard. I should have seen anybody moving about there.

                                I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, though.
                                So is Morris Eagle, and of course, Louis. 1 lived in a cottage in the passageway and was a photographer used by the club, 1 was the club speaker that night, and the last is the steward. All with direct ties to the club operations. The 4 men I mentioned before, with the exception of Issac Kozebrodski, are at best meeting attendees, perhaps club members, and a bystander. Worth mentioning that Issac Kozebrodski is quote as saying he learned of the body at around 12:40 and was sent out alone..."by Diemshitz or some other member") shortly thereafter. Or, 20 minutes before Louis says he even arrives at the gates.
                                Last edited by Michael W Richards; 11-23-2020, 01:33 PM.
                                Michael Richards

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