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Stride..a victim?

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  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    Surely the chances of the killer being interrupted just as, or immediately after, he’d cut her throat are exactly the same as if he’d been interrupted at any other point in the operation? If Diemschutz had been 5 seconds earlier Stride might have ended up dying of old age.

    The issue has been that Michael says that there was no evidence of the killer being interrupted or that we should work from that interruption. Which is true of course. But the point he’s been trying to make is that we should take from this that there was no interruption. My point is that in this case this doesn’t lessen or even preclude the possibility of interruption because we couldn’t expect to see evidence. If Diemschutz had arrived 2 or 3 seconds later and interrupted the killer then we might have seen Stride’s skirt lifted perhaps but we can’t say for certain when that interruption took place.

    To me this is glaringly obvious and I’m sure that everyone can see this. I’m not saying that this is definitely what happened because the possibility exists that she wasn’t killed by the ripper but I’m saying that we cannot expect to have seen evidence of interruption therefore the lack of evidence is not evidence against the possibility of the killer being interrupted.
    If the Ripper cuts throats with the victim in a sitting position - which has been argued for, because it helps him go almost right around the neck - what position would she end up in if he leaves the scene right at that point?
    Would she end up on he left side, looking like she had been 'lain gently down'?

    Also, beyond the interruption, we have to ask; where would we expect the Ripper to go? MA, Oct 3:

    The police have arrived at the conclusion that on the Sunday morning when the murder of "Long Liz" was committed the perpetrator of the deed must have had a very narrow escape from capture. It is their belief, and also that of many members of the International Club, that when the steward of the club, Mr. Diemschitz, entered the yard in his trap at one o'clock in the morning the miscreant was about to carry out the mutilation of his victim. There is little doubt that the unexpected entry of the vehicle disturbed him in his diabolical work, and compelled him to retire to another part of the yard. The explanation offered as to his escape is that when the alarm was raised and the members of the club rushed pell-mell downstairs into the yard, he mingled amongst them, and succeeded in effecting his escape before the police appeared upon the scene.

    Can you go for that?

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  • FrankO
    replied
    The evidence says that Smith went up Berner Street right after seeing Stride & companion, Herlock, and I think it tells us that he was about to enter Berner Street from Commercial Road when he saw people outside of Dutfield's Yard. So, to me it seems that, generally, Smith first went down Berner Street as far as Fairclough Street, then turned round and went up Berner Street again and at the top turned right on Commercial Road towards Batty Street to continue the 'exterior' of his beat. Since Berner Street was one of the 'interior streets' of his beat, according to his own testimony, it makes sense that he passed them in two directions, in this case first down and immediately afterwards back up again.

    This is how I read Smith's testimony regarding his beat (Times, 6 October):
    Click image for larger version

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    Last edited by FrankO; 12-12-2020, 12:36 PM.

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    Smith was correct, as far as I can tell.
    However, if 'went to' means 'proceeded to' then he gets to the top of Berner a little after 1am rather than right on 1, and we have to allow for that.
    This interpretation also hints there was a clock at the corner of Gower's Walk and Commercial Road - that being the reason Smith knows he went to Berner street at 1am.

    There is another reason for supposing Smith gets to the top of Berner a little later than 1...

    I did not notice any disturbance, and heard no cries of "Police."

    So he must have been a significant distance from Berner street when this occurred.

    If Smith passes up Berner street to Comm. Rd at 12:35 (as commonly supposed), then Fanny cannot get to her doorstep at the same time, for an obvious reason - she would see Stride and parcel man standing a few meters away on the other side of the street! So there must be a delay after Smith goes by.
    In my 'tweaked' version, Smith exits Berner at about 12:39, and Fanny goes outside at about 12:40.
    Even with that short delay, the pair seen by Smith appear to have gone out of sight very quickly, and he did not see them on the southern-leg - so they arrived at the point he sees them at when he is reaching Fairclough street. See how close that is?



    Is there anything in Smith's testimony to indicate that his last round before going to the yard, was outside the normal parameters?
    You probably saw this one coming but...the main issue with your scenario is that it presumes that Schwartz was never in Berner Street or else Fanny would obviously have seen the incident. What’s the objection to Smith passing at, say, 12.33? The young couple move on just after he passes then Fanny then comes onto her doorstep for 10 minutes from 12.34 to 12.44 then goes back inside. Then Schwartz passes at 12.45?

    ......

    As far as I know Smith doesn’t mention having to deal with any incidents but he wasn’t having to justify the time of his arrival so he might not have felt the need to have mentioned it? You’re right that we can’t assume it though.

    .......

    As I’ve said before I’m hopeless with maps and remembering directions and where things are in relation to other things so....are we saying that Smith walked from the Fairclough Street end up to Commercial Road? If so then I’ve been suggesting something that’s incorrect as i’ve been assuming that he came from Commercial Road toward Fairclough and that he’d have walked past the same clock that Diemschutz saw?

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    So if we're talking about 'interrupted at the very moment he cuts her throat' - then you're probably right.

    What I meant was that an interruption could conceivably occur at any point in the Ripper's 'work', and therefore the chances of it occurring right when it did, are low.
    In other words, if she looks exactly like she would had the killer had no intention of going on with it, we couldn't tell what is the case, but what are the chances of each possibility?
    Surely the chances of the killer being interrupted just as, or immediately after, he’d cut her throat are exactly the same as if he’d been interrupted at any other point in the operation? If Diemschutz had been 5 seconds earlier Stride might have ended up dying of old age.

    The issue has been that Michael says that there was no evidence of the killer being interrupted or that we should work from that interruption. Which is true of course. But the point he’s been trying to make is that we should take from this that there was no interruption. My point is that in this case this doesn’t lessen or even preclude the possibility of interruption because we couldn’t expect to see evidence. If Diemschutz had arrived 2 or 3 seconds later and interrupted the killer then we might have seen Stride’s skirt lifted perhaps but we can’t say for certain when that interruption took place.

    To me this is glaringly obvious and I’m sure that everyone can see this. I’m not saying that this is definitely what happened because the possibility exists that she wasn’t killed by the ripper but I’m saying that we cannot expect to have seen evidence of interruption therefore the lack of evidence is not evidence against the possibility of the killer being interrupted.

    Leave a comment:


  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    No we couldn’t expect that.

    This is hypothetical of course because none of us know exactly what happened but, if the killer was interrupted/disturbed just as he’d cut her throat, then we would just see a woman with her throat cut.

    Ill discuss any point but this is black and white and I can’t see why it’s even being questioned? We couldn’t expect any evidence of interruption if the killer was interrupted just after he’d cut her throat or even as he was cutting it.
    So if we're talking about 'interrupted at the very moment he cuts her throat' - then you're probably right.

    What I meant was that an interruption could conceivably occur at any point in the Ripper's 'work', and therefore the chances of it occurring right when it did, are low.
    In other words, if she looks exactly like she would had the killer had no intention of going on with it, we couldn't tell what is the case, but what are the chances of each possibility?

    Leave a comment:


  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    Or, if we accept that PC Smith was far more likely to have been correct on timing then Fanny could have been on her doorstep from 12.35 until 12.45.
    Smith was correct, as far as I can tell.
    However, if 'went to' means 'proceeded to' then he gets to the top of Berner a little after 1am rather than right on 1, and we have to allow for that.
    This interpretation also hints there was a clock at the corner of Gower's Walk and Commercial Road - that being the reason Smith knows he went to Berner street at 1am.

    There is another reason for supposing Smith gets to the top of Berner a little later than 1...

    I did not notice any disturbance, and heard no cries of "Police."

    So he must have been a significant distance from Berner street when this occurred.

    If Smith passes up Berner street to Comm. Rd at 12:35 (as commonly supposed), then Fanny cannot get to her doorstep at the same time, for an obvious reason - she would see Stride and parcel man standing a few meters away on the other side of the street! So there must be a delay after Smith goes by.
    In my 'tweaked' version, Smith exits Berner at about 12:39, and Fanny goes outside at about 12:40.
    Even with that short delay, the pair seen by Smith appear to have gone out of sight very quickly, and he did not see them on the southern-leg - so they arrived at the point he sees them at when he is reaching Fairclough street. See how close that is?

    We also have to remember that, although beats were regulated, they could vary in actual times if the officer had to deal with an issue. Breaking up a drunken fight for example could add 5 minutes or more to the time.
    Is there anything in Smith's testimony to indicate that his last round before going to the yard, was outside the normal parameters?

    Leave a comment:


  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    So robbery would have to be common enough to include but we can dismiss location because the other murders didn’t occur in Berner Street? Come on. We could only express doubts if she’d been killed 5 miles away for example.
    I meant that prostitutes were rarely if ever seen in Berner street, and on that basis we would not expect JtR to go hunting for pray there.

    My bad - I was ambiguous.

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    You seem to believe that you are cleverer and more astute than everyone else Michael. Have you ever considered trying to take over the world?

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    No stupid idea is valid simply because a majority of idiots believe in it.

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    The only plot here is with the ones who have lost it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

    Leave a comment:


  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    It’s a good point but I’m guessing that others might say that the gap could be explained by being the time taken to come up with the plot?
    The only plot here is with the ones who have lost it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by FrankO View Post
    Exactly, Caz, and moving the time of her discovery from, approximately, 12:40 am to about half a minute after 1 am wouldn't change much, if anything at all. The murderer still got away unseen and the police still did a rather thorough search of the whole club, the whole yard and all the members who'd remained in the yard until PC Lamb arrived there.

    All the best,
    Frank
    It’s a good point but I’m guessing that others might say that the gap could be explained by being the time taken to come up with the plot?

    Leave a comment:


  • FrankO
    replied
    Originally posted by caz View Post
    Michael can move the pony and cart around like pieces on a chess board; suggest that Mrs M had defective hearing; and accuse Louis D of trying to pervert the course of justice, but the fact remains that he did arrive, and he did discover Stride, very shortly after her killer must have been there, cutting her throat.
    Exactly, Caz, and moving the time of her discovery from, approximately, 12:40 am to about half a minute after 1 am wouldn't change much, if anything at all. The murderer still got away unseen and the police still did a rather thorough search of the whole club, the whole yard and all the members who'd remained in the yard until PC Lamb arrived there.

    All the best,
    Frank

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    By definition, we would expect the victim to be in some state between throat cut and fully ripped, inclusive of the first but not last condition.

    If the killer had only intended to cut throat, the victim would of course be in the first of many states compatible with interruption.

    The chances of a mutilation intending killer being interrupted at the only throat cut intended state, are therefore low but not zero.
    No we couldn’t expect that.

    This is hypothetical of course because none of us know exactly what happened but, if the killer was interrupted/disturbed just as he’d cut her throat, then we would just see a woman with her throat cut.

    Ill discuss any point but this is black and white and I can’t see why it’s even being questioned? We couldn’t expect any evidence of interruption if the killer was interrupted just after he’d cut her throat or even as he was cutting it.
    Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 12-11-2020, 10:38 AM.

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    Good question.

    It could mean one of two things.

    One: returned to Berner Street at 1am

    Two: (from the starting point of the beat,) headed to Berner Street at 1am

    The difference can be seen in this map (from Smith's Beat)...

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    The easterly travel from Gower's-walk (the starting point) to Berner street would take a couple of minutes (approximately).

    The later Smith gets to Berner street, the later he was last there (all other things being equal).
    If he arrives at the top of the street at 1:02, instead of 1:00, he last enters Berner street at about 12:35, and exits the street a few minutes later.
    It is on the northerly leg that Smith sees Stride and parcel man.
    By the time Fanny Mortimer is outside, these two are both out of her sight, so if we have Fanny getting to her doorstep at 12:40 (so not quite the immediately suggested in the Evening News, Oct 1), she is on her balcony until about 12:50.
    Or, if we accept that PC Smith was far more likely to have been correct on timing then Fanny could have been on her doorstep from 12.35 until 12.45. We also have to remember that, although beats were regulated, they could vary in actual times if the officer had to deal with an issue. Breaking up a drunken fight for example could add 5 minutes or more to the time.

    Leave a comment:

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