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Stride..a victim?

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  • c.d.
    replied
    The choice to not get involved in a quarrel, presupposes that the quarrel is occurring in a language that is understood.

    I disagree completely with that conclusion. Tone and loudness of voice, facial expressions and gestures probably indicate a quarrel is taking place even if the language is not understood.

    I recall being thrown out of a youth hostel in Germany many years ago by a very irate German woman. I have no idea what I did or what she was saying but it was pretty clear that the thrower outer was not happy with me. No translation needed.

    c.d.

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but, feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street.

    The choice to not get involved in a quarrel, presupposes that the quarrel is occurring in a language that is understood.
    That language was either Swedish (low probability), or English (high probability).
    Ergo, it is reasonable to assume that Schwartz could speak and understand English, at least moderately well.
    No it’s not a reasonable assumption. The argument was obviously a physical one. BS Man manhandled her to the ground so she would have been in some distress. If Schwartz had approached the couple and tried to intervene to protect her he’d have accepted the possibility of BS Man reacting with violence toward him. So he decided on his own safety rather than hers. We cant assume that he understood what the dispute was about.

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  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Bridewell View Post

    I'm not ignoring the possibility that a translator fine-tuned the account. I am just seeking evidence that it is so rather than supposition. Such evidence as we have suggests that Schwartz was a recent arrival in the UK and therefore probably spoke little or no English. That is what the evidence shows and I move forward from that, The claim that Schwartz spoke good English is conclusion-led and not supported by the evidence. It is as simple as that. I respect your right to an opinion on the matter but not to the extent of not having one of my own which, to my mind, is better supported by the evidence. Stay Safe!
    The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but, feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street.

    The choice to not get involved in a quarrel, presupposes that the quarrel is occurring in a language that is understood.
    That language was either Swedish (low probability), or English (high probability).
    Ergo, it is reasonable to assume that Schwartz could speak and understand English, at least moderately well.

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  • caz
    replied
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    Caz
    I was referring to 1888 not 21st Century serial killers, as i have always said you cannot compare 20th century serial killers to a 1888 serial killer, and I am right am I not that there is no evidence from 1888 or the years before or after that two murders occurred on the same night which were belived to have been committed by the same person.

    With the Stride murder there are so many differences between her murder and the rest in the series suggesting to me she was not killed by the same hand as the rest.

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
    On what grounds are you arguing that a serial killer in 1888 was a significantly different animal from the 20th century variety? How would their psychology and behaviour have been incomparable with offenders from later generations? My grandparents were all born in the late 1870s, so it's not that long ago in evolutionary terms!

    The main difference, as far as I can see, is in the methods available to catch the crafty buggers today, such as fingerprints, DNA, CCTV and accurately maintained criminal and personal records, to identify potential suspects. That makes my comparison even stronger, in that there were more ways for my modern double eventers to come unstuck when they risked staying around to find their second victims, yet they still did so, and all did come unstuck sooner or later. In 1888, they couldn't even have proved a suspect had Stride's blood on his clothes, if they had picked him up in Aldgate, chatting up Eddowes.

    And don't forget, the author of the Saucy Jacky postcard appeared to recognise a Victorian double eventer as soon as the news broke of these two murders, and he didn't have the luxury of making comparisons with modern examples.

    Have a good weekend, Trev, and stay safe.

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    Last edited by caz; 01-15-2021, 05:55 PM.

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  • Varqm
    replied
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    Caz
    I was referring to 1888 not 21st Century serial killers, as i have always said you cannot compare 20th century serial killers to a 1888 serial killer, and I am right am I not that there is no evidence from 1888 or the years before or after that two murders occurred on the same night which were belived to have been committed by the same person.

    With the Stride murder there are so many differences between her murder and the rest in the series suggesting to me she was not killed by the same hand as the rest.

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
    What applied to Nichols does not apply to Stride? Both times the killer was disturbed and could not do his "thing".And even the Frances Coles murder.
    This is also possible and this is what I believe,that the ripper was going to escape to the City Aldgate/Portsoken area and happen upon Eddowes who was just released from jail and was walking down Houndsditch per PC George Hutt. This is the only city and double murder by the ripper.
    Last edited by Varqm; 01-15-2021, 04:34 AM.

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  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by caz View Post

    Afternoon Trev,

    I give you Ted Bundy, Leigh Thornhill and Mark Dixie as just three modern examples of double eventers, who attacked two women on the same night, after a botched or interrupted first attempt. All three used excessive violence when brutally murdering their second victim of the night. The first victim in each case was left alive to raise the alarm immediately and describe her assailant, but that didn't stop the killer 'wandering the streets' in search of another woman to attack. Thornhill had attempted to strangle his first victim, but was chased away by witnesses. Yet he remained in the same area, trawling the main road nearby, until he found a woman he could take out his frustration on, to horrific effect.

    In Stride's case, the Met police would have been on high alert and occupied questioning potential witnesses on or close to Berner Street. That might explain why the second murder took place on City police turf. This was an exception for the ripper, just as much as south of the Whitechapel Road would have been. Was it purely a coincidence that the ripper went out and committed his first mutilation murder in a different police district, shortly after a third woman in a month had been found with her throat cut on Met turf? Or was there method in his madness, figuring that the City police would not be expecting him?

    If the Mitre Square killer preferred to be able to mutilate his victims without fear of imminent interruption, he'd have quickly appreciated why Dutfield's Yard was not the best location for his purposes. That would apply whether he just enjoyed the mutilation process, or wanted to take away body parts if given the chance. His ability to do anything much with Stride would have been hampered, therefore, by the very fact that she was in that unsuitable location, and seemed to have no intention of going elsewhere. What would have stopped him slitting her throat in anger and frustration on hearing the pony and cart approaching, putting the kibosh on taking things any further?

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    Caz
    I was referring to 1888 not 21st Century serial killers, as i have always said you cannot compare 20th century serial killers to a 1888 serial killer, and I am right am I not that there is no evidence from 1888 or the years before or after that two murders occurred on the same night which were belived to have been committed by the same person.

    With the Stride murder there are so many differences between her murder and the rest in the series suggesting to me she was not killed by the same hand as the rest.

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

    Leave a comment:


  • Bridewell
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    It's not quite that simple.

    Multiple members of the club spoke to the press, in English, and some of those with perfect English. For example, Joseph Lave was a Russian, recently arrived from America. Presumably he must have been in the States for a few years? Seventeen year old Isaac Kozebrodsky could speak English, passably well. So he must have been in England a few years at that stage.

    Speaking in a foreign language would mean that Abberline would have missed all the nuances and hesitations in Schwartz' speech, as well as the opportunity the translator had for 'fine-tuning'. I'm surprised you seem to be ignoring this.

    If the translator were Wess, we have a possible conflict of interest. Being offended at the suggestion that both he and Schwartz lied, isn't going to remove that possibility.

    Why do you suppose the Leman street police had doubts about Schwartz' story by Oct 2? Surely there was no reason to give up on identifying either man (BS & pipeman) that early, and yet they seem to have done just that! Their doubts must have been more fundamental. Why?
    I'm not ignoring the possibility that a translator fine-tuned the account. I am just seeking evidence that it is so rather than supposition. Such evidence as we have suggests that Schwartz was a recent arrival in the UK and therefore probably spoke little or no English. That is what the evidence shows and I move forward from that, The claim that Schwartz spoke good English is conclusion-led and not supported by the evidence. It is as simple as that. I respect your right to an opinion on the matter but not to the extent of not having one of my own which, to my mind, is better supported by the evidence. Stay Safe!
    Last edited by Bridewell; 01-14-2021, 09:53 PM.

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  • caz
    replied
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
    We see no evidence of two attacks on women on the same night and in close proximity to each other

    Look at it another way I am playing devils advocate with regards to the suggestion that he was interrupted. He would have had to make a quick exit that might have resulted in him being seen, with that in mind and given the fact that he had carried out a murder which is what he presumably set out to do, why would he run the risk of wandering the streets looking for another victim knowing that the police would be on high alert from the discovery of Strides body ,knowing that he might have been seen, surley he would have wanted to distance himself as quickly as possible from the area.

    Its not feasable to consider the sugestion that because he had been interrupted his ultimate goal had not been fulfilled. I have already stated that it would have taken a matter on moments to carry out any mutilations, and if this killer was organ harvesting surley he would not have picked this location to carry ot a murder and then remove organs

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
    Afternoon Trev,

    I give you Ted Bundy, Leigh Thornhill and Mark Dixie as just three modern examples of double eventers, who attacked two women on the same night, after a botched or interrupted first attempt. All three used excessive violence when brutally murdering their second victim of the night. The first victim in each case was left alive to raise the alarm immediately and describe her assailant, but that didn't stop the killer 'wandering the streets' in search of another woman to attack. Thornhill had attempted to strangle his first victim, but was chased away by witnesses. Yet he remained in the same area, trawling the main road nearby, until he found a woman he could take out his frustration on, to horrific effect.

    In Stride's case, the Met police would have been on high alert and occupied questioning potential witnesses on or close to Berner Street. That might explain why the second murder took place on City police turf. This was an exception for the ripper, just as much as south of the Whitechapel Road would have been. Was it purely a coincidence that the ripper went out and committed his first mutilation murder in a different police district, shortly after a third woman in a month had been found with her throat cut on Met turf? Or was there method in his madness, figuring that the City police would not be expecting him?

    If the Mitre Square killer preferred to be able to mutilate his victims without fear of imminent interruption, he'd have quickly appreciated why Dutfield's Yard was not the best location for his purposes. That would apply whether he just enjoyed the mutilation process, or wanted to take away body parts if given the chance. His ability to do anything much with Stride would have been hampered, therefore, by the very fact that she was in that unsuitable location, and seemed to have no intention of going elsewhere. What would have stopped him slitting her throat in anger and frustration on hearing the pony and cart approaching, putting the kibosh on taking things any further?

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    Last edited by caz; 01-14-2021, 04:21 PM.

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  • DJA
    replied
    She apparently spoke Swedish fluently to people who came into the lodging-house.

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  • Joshua Rogan
    replied
    The Morning Advertiser reports Preston as saying;

    "The Foreman. - Did she talk much about family? - No; only occasionally she would mention some Swedish game, or talk with any Swede who might come into the lodging-house when she was there"

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Cheers Dave. It was a complete stab in the dark (no joke intended) on my part due to Charles Preston who said that he’d heard Liz talking to someone in a foreign language. I wondered if she might have struck up a friendship with a fellow Swede? Kidney said that she spoke Yiddish of course so this was probably what he’d heard.

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  • DJA
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    Out of curiosity do we no anything about another Swede living in the same lodging house as Stride?
    Apart from the slammer , Stride resided at four addresses during her last six months.

    The building at 32 Flower and Dean Street was a few doors from an archway that gave free and open access through to the Jewish soup kitchen at 4 - 6 Fashion Street.

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    Further up Flower and Dean resided Nichols who had moved next door to Eddowes just before Kate went hopping.
    Excellent chance they ran into each other when Nichols resided at 18 Thrawl Street and Eddowes was attending her sick sister at 6 Thawl Street.
    Tends to confirm they knew each other as inpatients together at London Hospital from December 1867 with Rheumatic Fever.
    Coincidentally Nichols was murdered near the Hospital before Eddowes returned for a reward giving her jailers the address of 6 Fashion Street and the names "nothing" and Mary Ann Kelly.
    GSG was written on the way towards Dorset Street where,according to Major Henry Smith,Jack washed his hands

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    Sorry Herlock,the only other Swede was prolly in the soup



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  • Syclone
    replied
    I think Jack chose a good night to go on the hunt. Mr. Kidney gave him another victim. Say: "thankya", Jack.

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  • DJA
    replied
    Which one?

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Out of curiosity do we no anything about another Swede living in the same lodging house as Stride?

    Leave a comment:

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