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Stride..a victim?

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  • Azarna
    replied
    Pall Mall Gazette - 2nd October 1890

    The selfsame Sunday morn that heralded the discovery of the Mitre Square victim as the one that found another unfortunate lying in the gateway in Berner Street, St George's East, with her throat cut. It is true that since that time the gateway has been religiously closed after the last van has entered it. But then the vans are sometimes very late in arriving, and what is there to prevent a murderer decoying another victim there? When you push open the gate it is as dark as Erebus; when the gate is pushed back there is an effectual screen from any prying passer-by, although passers-by, who are constituted very largely of the foreigners who reside in the locality, are far too scared to ever peep inside that gate with its terrible history; and, finally, there is always singing or some other form of entertainment going on at the International Club next door to effectually drown a faint shriek

    But what about the policeman on the beat, you say? The police on that beat have got so tired of opening that gate and finding nothing there since the murder that they have long ago despaired of ever finding anything, and consequently pass it now with the most complete indifference.

    And, even should, by the most remote possibility, the murderer be disturbed by anybody opening the gate from the street entrance, he is by no means caught in a trap, for there are plenty of backyards that can be scaled, and a great many courts and passages, leading to Berner and other streets, to be easily reached. On the whole, then, that gateway in Berner Street would form a very safe place for any operations of the Ripper just now.

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    Because we can’t really get an accurate mental picture of the yard it’s difficult to judge but to be honest I don’t see much of an issue. We can’t assume that the killer would have had to retreat into the bottom of the yard to hide. A few few away and in such a position that he could see Diemschutz and the doorway would have been sufficient. As soon as he steps into the club the killer flees.

    ...

    This is interesting though.



    As you know, any doubt that I might have about whether Stride was a victim or not is based on the location and the level of risk. The location now seems even more risky if the door was half open unless......we knew when it was opened. If Mrs D had opened it to let in a bit of air 10 minutes or so earlier could this have been what disturbed the killer?
    Just to add. If Morris Eagle entered via the side door it’s reasonable to assume that he’d have closed the door behind him. And so, we appear to have a door that was opened sometime between 12.35 and when Diemschutz returned. Doesn’t this raise the very real possibility that the killer might have been disturbed by Mrs D rather than Mr D? She’s warm in the kitchen so she opens the door to let in some air but she doesn’t step into the yard. The killer sees the door opened and the light from it. He assumes that someone is about to come through the door so he immediately leaves the yard. Possibly even as little as a couple of minutes before Diemschutz returns?

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post
    There were also the guys in the little print shed who could have looked out or came out at any time. Risky indeed.

    It draws parallels with the other C5, particularly Chapman and Kelly, as the potential for the killer to become trapped was not just high it was reckless to the point of stupidity. Does that fall on the side of Stride being a victim of the same hand?

    The lack of escape route, no suspicions from witnesses, Schwartz and BS man not being noticed by anyone in the area (and let's face it, if Schwartz never came forward, we'd have no commotion in Berner St), Goldstein's walk through, it's understandable that theories involving the club are out there. It ties up lots of loose ends. If we remove the club conspiracies, what are we left with. A murderer who apparently can kill and slip away unseen, unheard, leaving no trace. Seems unlikely, but that's exactly what happened to the other victims.

    Maybe there were 4 or 5 killers. It unfortunate that they all had exceptional luck in getting away against the odds.

    That raises a question though. Is it more likely for one person to commit five murders undetected, or for five people to commit one each and get away with it?
    It might be worth mentioning Al that from inside a lit room (like the print shed) an unlit yard would have appeared an expanse of black. I know what you mean about loose ends though. It’s impossible to recreate with total confidence a series of events (or non-events) when there are witness discrepancies. One thing that I’d say that’s vital for us all to remember is the issue of timing and the fact that most people would have owned a watch or clock, so we should be wary of placing too much stock in quoted times unless we have good reason for doing it. Many witnesses were doing little more than guessing based on how long they had been somewhere or how long it was after they’d done something. I’ve got access to the time 24/7 but I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve thought to myself “it must be 10.30 by now,” and yet I’ve checked a clock and it’s only 10 past or it’s 20 to. So if we can misjudge times in 2020 how much easier in 1888? This is why I see no reason to assume a mystery when witnesses say that Diemschutz found the body earlier. They were simply mistaken IMO.

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    We should at least look at some data before deciding when the escape occurred.
    For the killer to have temporarily hidden down past pony & cart when Louis went inside, we would need to consider the following.
    Firstly, Louis agrees with this possibility...

    By a Juror: It would [Would it] have been possible for any one to have escaped from the yard if he had been hiding there while you went into the club to inform the members?
    Louis: Yes, it would have been possible; but as soon as I informed the members every one went out, and I do not think it would have been possible for anyone to get out then.

    This seems to indicate that Louis does not support the 'mingling theory'.
    So what issues does a killer hiding further down the yard face?

    Sarah Diemschitz (stewardess of the club): Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened. I inquired what was the matter, but all he did was to excitedly ask for a match or candle, as there was a body in the yard. The door had been, and still was, half open, and through the aperture the light from the gas jets in the kitchen was streaming out into the yard.

    I am positive I did not hear any screams or sound of any kind. Even the singing on the floor above would not have prevented me from hearing them, had there been any. In the yard itself all was as silent as the grave.


    Baxter: If any one had run up the yard, you would have seen him?
    Louis: Yes; because it is dark just in the gateway; but further up the yard you could see anybody running or walking by the lights of the club.

    Presumably he means a now motionless killer must have retreated to the backyard before the cart pulls into the laneway, else he is contradicting his earlier statement.

    So the situation facing a hiding killer is; he must walk quietly past a partially open door, behind which are people who claimed not to hear a sound (Sarah & club servant). He then has to walk by the lights of the club - light which emanates from windows, behind which there may be people. He then has to wait for Louis to go inside, which he can only guess he might do (Louis could have just called for assistance). He then has to sneak back past windows and door and out onto the street, before anyone comes outside, and again without being seen or heard.

    So it is easy to imagine that he might have 'just escaped', but in practice it would have been quite difficult and highly risky.
    Because we can’t really get an accurate mental picture of the yard it’s difficult to judge but to be honest I don’t see much of an issue. We can’t assume that the killer would have had to retreat into the bottom of the yard to hide. A few few away and in such a position that he could see Diemschutz and the doorway would have been sufficient. As soon as he steps into the club the killer flees.

    ...

    This is interesting though.

    . The door had been, and still was, half open,
    As you know, any doubt that I might have about whether Stride was a victim or not is based on the location and the level of risk. The location now seems even more risky if the door was half open unless......we knew when it was opened. If Mrs D had opened it to let in a bit of air 10 minutes or so earlier could this have been what disturbed the killer?

    Leave a comment:


  • Al Bundy's Eyes
    replied
    There were also the guys in the little print shed who could have looked out or came out at any time. Risky indeed.

    It draws parallels with the other C5, particularly Chapman and Kelly, as the potential for the killer to become trapped was not just high it was reckless to the point of stupidity. Does that fall on the side of Stride being a victim of the same hand?

    The lack of escape route, no suspicions from witnesses, Schwartz and BS man not being noticed by anyone in the area (and let's face it, if Schwartz never came forward, we'd have no commotion in Berner St), Goldstein's walk through, it's understandable that theories involving the club are out there. It ties up lots of loose ends. If we remove the club conspiracies, what are we left with. A murderer who apparently can kill and slip away unseen, unheard, leaving no trace. Seems unlikely, but that's exactly what happened to the other victims.

    Maybe there were 4 or 5 killers. It unfortunate that they all had exceptional luck in getting away against the odds.

    That raises a question though. Is it more likely for one person to commit five murders undetected, or for five people to commit one each and get away with it?

    Leave a comment:


  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    He could have just escaped the second that Diemschutz went inside. The yard would have been totally empty (apart from the body of course)
    We should at least look at some data before deciding when the escape occurred.
    For the killer to have temporarily hidden down past pony & cart when Louis went inside, we would need to consider the following.
    Firstly, Louis agrees with this possibility...

    By a Juror: It would [Would it] have been possible for any one to have escaped from the yard if he had been hiding there while you went into the club to inform the members?
    Louis: Yes, it would have been possible; but as soon as I informed the members every one went out, and I do not think it would have been possible for anyone to get out then.

    This seems to indicate that Louis does not support the 'mingling theory'.
    So what issues does a killer hiding further down the yard face?

    Sarah Diemschitz (stewardess of the club): Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened. I inquired what was the matter, but all he did was to excitedly ask for a match or candle, as there was a body in the yard. The door had been, and still was, half open, and through the aperture the light from the gas jets in the kitchen was streaming out into the yard.

    I am positive I did not hear any screams or sound of any kind. Even the singing on the floor above would not have prevented me from hearing them, had there been any. In the yard itself all was as silent as the grave.


    Baxter: If any one had run up the yard, you would have seen him?
    Louis: Yes; because it is dark just in the gateway; but further up the yard you could see anybody running or walking by the lights of the club.

    Presumably he means a now motionless killer must have retreated to the backyard before the cart pulls into the laneway, else he is contradicting his earlier statement.

    So the situation facing a hiding killer is; he must walk quietly past a partially open door, behind which are people who claimed not to hear a sound (Sarah & club servant). He then has to walk by the lights of the club - light which emanates from windows, behind which there may be people. He then has to wait for Louis to go inside, which he can only guess he might do (Louis could have just called for assistance). He then has to sneak back past windows and door and out onto the street, before anyone comes outside, and again without being seen or heard.

    So it is easy to imagine that he might have 'just escaped', but in practice it would have been quite difficult and highly risky.

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  • Azarna
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    He could have just escaped the second that Diemschutz went inside. The yard would have been totally empty (apart from the body of course)
    An excellent point. If there was any sneaking out of the yard, this does sound like the safest time to do it - plus I would assume he wanted to get away jolly fast.

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    DT: …that Saturday night, at five minutes to eleven o'clock, a man corresponding with the description given by Packer of the individual who purchased the grapes in Berner-street, called at the shop, which is on the left of a covered yard, usually occupied by barrows, which are let out on hire.

    Packer: "I had been out with my barrow most of the day, but hadn't done much business; and as the night came on wet I went home and took the place of the 'missus' in the shop here."

    Where do you suppose Packer's barrow is stored when not in use?

    Do we know?

    He would have to go past a partly open door and a few windows, twice, and hope that he can sneak away before Louis and co. make it outside.

    There was no partially open door. You’re making an assumption for which there’s no evidence. Windows? It’s impossible to walk along any street without passing windows.

    ‘Before Louis and co. make it outside?’ He sees Louis from where he’s hiding and scarpers the second that Louis goes inside.


    By 'barrow near the gate', you mean Louis' cart?
    So from the PoV of someone near the victim, behind the cart there is a pony.

    Pony’s usually pull rather than push so I’d suggest that it was in front of the cart Sorry I couldn’t resist it.
    Its annoying that when you respond within a quote you’re not allowed to ‘post’ until you type something after the quote!

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  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Azarna View Post

    Ah, now this is interesting.
    I guess I have always pictured it as being a pretty empty yard.
    But if it had some costermonger barrows ("stocked" sounds like quite a few to me) around it this makes the following scenario a little more likely, yes?
    DT: …that Saturday night, at five minutes to eleven o'clock, a man corresponding with the description given by Packer of the individual who purchased the grapes in Berner-street, called at the shop, which is on the left of a covered yard, usually occupied by barrows, which are let out on hire.

    Packer: "I had been out with my barrow most of the day, but hadn't done much business; and as the night came on wet I went home and took the place of the 'missus' in the shop here."

    Where do you suppose Packer's barrow is stored when not in use?

    The murderer has grabbed Liz and cut her throat, when Diemschutz and his pony arrive. The murderer hears them as they slow down outside the gate and start to turn in, and drops Liz to hide amongst the costermonger barrows.

    Whilst Diemschultz is raising the alarm at the club, the murderer slips out and away.
    He would have to go past a partly open door and a few windows, twice, and hope that he can sneak away before Louis and co. make it outside.

    I am not sure whether he could have pulled off mingling with the club goers, but if he was hidden behind a barrow near the gate, and they club goers were all distracted by the body, maybe his escape from the scene is more plausible than I had originally been thinking it.
    By 'barrow near the gate', you mean Louis' cart?
    So from the PoV of someone near the victim, behind the cart there is a pony.
    Last edited by NotBlamedForNothing; 12-13-2020, 10:35 AM.

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by Azarna View Post

    Ah, now this is interesting.
    I guess I have always pictured it as being a pretty empty yard.
    But if it had some costermonger barrows ("stocked" sounds like quite a few to me) around it this makes the following scenario a little more likely, yes?

    The murderer has grabbed Liz and cut her throat, when Diemschutz and his pony arrive. The murderer hears them as they slow down outside the gate and start to turn in, and drops Liz to hide amongst the costermonger barrows.

    Whilst Diemschultz is raising the alarm at the club, the murderer slips out and away.

    I am not sure whether he could have pulled off mingling with the club goers, but if he was hidden behind a barrow near the gate, and they club goers were all distracted by the body, maybe his escape from the scene is more plausible than I had originally been thinking it.
    He could have just escaped the second that Diemschutz went inside. The yard would have been totally empty (apart from the body of course)

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  • Azarna
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    To be fair to MWR, MA, Oct 1:

    [The club] was holding revelry at the very time the crime was discovered, and only twenty minutes before members of the club had come out to get a breath of fresh air and had seen nothing unusual. The yard was stocked with costermongers' barrows, and one o'clock is not late for those articles to be trundled home.

    So Lave had company outside, and there were several costermonger barrows in the yard, and these did sometimes return late at night.
    Ah, now this is interesting.
    I guess I have always pictured it as being a pretty empty yard.
    But if it had some costermonger barrows ("stocked" sounds like quite a few to me) around it this makes the following scenario a little more likely, yes?

    The murderer has grabbed Liz and cut her throat, when Diemschutz and his pony arrive. The murderer hears them as they slow down outside the gate and start to turn in, and drops Liz to hide amongst the costermonger barrows.

    Whilst Diemschultz is raising the alarm at the club, the murderer slips out and away.

    I am not sure whether he could have pulled off mingling with the club goers, but if he was hidden behind a barrow near the gate, and they club goers were all distracted by the body, maybe his escape from the scene is more plausible than I had originally been thinking it.

    Leave a comment:


  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

    Perhaps the first horse and cart noises were drowned out by the bouzouki music coming from the club?
    To be fair to MWR, MA, Oct 1:

    [The club] was holding revelry at the very time the crime was discovered, and only twenty minutes before members of the club had come out to get a breath of fresh air and had seen nothing unusual. The yard was stocked with costermongers' barrows, and one o'clock is not late for those articles to be trundled home.

    So Lave had company outside, and there were several costermonger barrows in the yard, and these did sometimes return late at night.

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by FrankO View Post
    The evidence says that Smith went up Berner Street right after seeing Stride & companion, Herlock, and I think it tells us that he was about to enter Berner Street from Commercial Road when he saw people outside of Dutfield's Yard. So, to me it seems that, generally, Smith first went down Berner Street as far as Fairclough Street, then turned round and went up Berner Street again and at the top turned right on Commercial Road towards Batty Street to continue the 'exterior' of his beat. Since Berner Street was one of the 'interior streets' of his beat, according to his own testimony, it makes sense that he passed them in two directions, in this case first down and immediately afterwards back up again.

    This is how I read Smith's testimony regarding his beat (Times, 6 October):
    Click image for larger version

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    Thanks Frank. So he probably did pass the clock.

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  • DJA
    replied
    Schrödinger's cat - Wikipedia

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  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    You probably saw this one coming but...the main issue with your scenario is that it presumes that Schwartz was never in Berner Street or else Fanny would obviously have seen the incident. What’s the objection to Smith passing at, say, 12.33? The young couple move on just after he passes then Fanny then comes onto her doorstep for 10 minutes from 12.34 to 12.44 then goes back inside. Then Schwartz passes at 12.45?
    The problem is that he then returns to the top of Berner street at about 12:58, and two constables are already in the yard.
    Diemschitz is still a few minutes away, by his timing.

    As I’ve said before I’m hopeless with maps and remembering directions and where things are in relation to other things so....are we saying that Smith walked from the Fairclough Street end up to Commercial Road? If so then I’ve been suggesting something that’s incorrect as i’ve been assuming that he came from Commercial Road toward Fairclough and that he’d have walked past the same clock that Diemschutz saw?
    He walks down and up the street - both, in other words.
    Use Frank's map or this one...

    Click image for larger version

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    Blue is Dutfield's Yard.
    Dr Blackwell and Ed Johnston live at the top of Batty street.
    The Beehive publichouse is on the corner of Fairclough and Christian streets.

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