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  • Hello Jeff,

    Neil entered Bucks Row from Thomas St.

    "He deposed that on Friday morning, at a quarter to four o'clock, he was going down Buck's-row, Whitechapel, from Thomas-street to Brady-street."
    dustymiller
    aka drstrange

    Comment


    • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
      Hello Jeff,

      Neil entered Bucks Row from Thomas St.

      "He deposed that on Friday morning, at a quarter to four o'clock, he was going down Buck's-row, Whitechapel, from Thomas-street to Brady-street."
      Yah, I'm trying to work out the nitty gritty, and not quite sure how to fit that in. I've been thinking alone 3 general lines:

      1) the "from Thomas-street to Brady street" is just to indicate direction of travel only (which fits what I've got). I don't like this, though, as Baker's Row is the more
      "main" street to use as a direction marker, etc. and it feels like dismissing the testimony out of hand. I would rather explore other options first to see if something sensible can be made of it.

      2) I've got the detail of the beat wrong (probably) and he goes up and down Thomas street, then over to Queen Anne and and down it, but he spotted the body before going up Queen Anne. Not sure I'm happy with that as Polly's body is described as being in the dark and hard to see from a distance, but that's by Cross/Lechmere who's not on patrol but walking to work. Maybe it was more visible to PC Neil as he's looking for things out of the ordinary?

      3) Another way I could have the beat wrong is that upon reaching the "Buck's Row-Queen Anne" intersection he then returns up Queen Anne back over to Thomas, and then back down to Buck's Row. That way, all portions of those northern streets are covered twice (both sides of the street) and he covers the section of Buck's Row I've left not covered. That adds another 165.8 yards (151.640 metres), which would make his patrol speed 2.8 mph, again, slightly below average walking speed. That's sort of my current favorite option, but I may have overlooked other options. If we go with that, then rather being at the red line, he's would now be just starting to head West on the cross street between Queen Anne Street And Thomas (which, funnily enough, is called Cross Street). But, that really starts threading the needle as he's going to reach the other end of Cross Street turn south on Thomas and reach Buck's Row in 1 minute, and Cross/Lechmere will only have reached the end of Queen Anne Street. However, given the margin of error in the timings, that's actually pretty close. If Cross/Lechmere leave a minute earlier, they end up passed Thomas and almost out of Buck's Row before PC Neil re-emerges out of Thomas and into Buck's Row again.

      Happy to get some suggestions. Obviously, there is the possibility the newspaper has the beat wrong, but again, I would rather not dismiss something if it actually does make sense.

      - Jeff

      Comment


      • Yes it's complicated!

        "I was on the right-hand side of the street, when I noticed a figure lying in the street"
        Morning Advertiser/Times/Evening Standard/Daily Telegraph and others

        " I was on the left hand side of the street, when I noticed a figure lying in the street."
        Lloyd's Newspaper
        Last edited by drstrange169; 05-23-2019, 06:06 AM.
        dustymiller
        aka drstrange

        Comment


        • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
          Yes it's complicated!

          "I was on the right-hand side of the street, when I noticed a figure lying in the street"
          Morning Advertiser/Times/Evening Standard/Daily Telegraph and others

          " I was on the left hand side of the street, when I noticed a figure lying in the street."
          Lloyd's Newspaper
          Yes. If the majority are correct, then it depends upon which street he's referencing, Buck's Row or Thomas. Let's say, for arguments sake, he first skips Thomas, does Queen Anne Street up the far side, back down, through Cross, up Thomas, turns around and back down Thomas to Buck's Row, that would put him on the right hand side of Thomas, suggesting he spotted the body from there. That leads to the question of why he didn't see it when he entered Queen Anne Street (again, presuming this new option of the route is correct). As that journey would take about 6 minutes, and Eddowes, who was more extensively mutilated, was estimated to require 5, we have opportunity for the murder to be happening in that time window. (pure speculation; the alternative, of course, is that he just didn't notice her the first time, but why he does this time from a further distance I can't say as it's clearly less probable).

          Or, he may have simply mis-spoke and was referring to the left side of Buck's Row despite saying right, and the majority quote him and Lloyds corrected it.

          Or, when he goes up Buck's Row he's crossed to the school side of the street and he's on the right side there when he's now close enough to spot her, and the Thomas-Buck's Row reference is indicating the direction and the last street he exited to get into Buck's Row. (making the above adjustment to the beat maybe the more likely one?).

          It gets finicky, and unfortunately, right at the critical portion of the beat.

          - Jeff

          Comment


          • I tend to go with Lloyd's as the other papers also say,

            " I went across and found deceased lying outside a gateway ... "
            dustymiller
            aka drstrange

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
              Ok, based on a story in The Echo (Sept 21, 1888; Thanks for the pointer Steve!), I've traced out what appears to be PC Neil's beat. It's described like this:

              ...the third constable would commence at Brady street, cover Whitechapel road, Baker's row, Thomas street, Queen Anne street, and Buck's row, to Brady street, and all the interior, this consisting of about ten streets, courts, passage, &c....

              So, I've traced around those streets and up and back down "all the interior" streets and passages. I've made one or two judgement calls, such as only the N-S bit of Thomas Street, as another PC in Baker's Row I'm assuming would do the E-W portion, and I'm assuming he doesn't go all the way back down Thomas but cuts over to Queen Anne Street, does that, then back to Buck's Row. His patrol would be in a clockwise direction.

              The total distance (in yards) is 2,297.4 (2100.735 metres), which works out to about 2.6 miles per hour (76.7 y/min) patrol speed if it takes him 30 minutes as testified. That's a bit slower than the average walking speed, which to me makes sense. If PC Neil finds Nichols at about the same time that Cross/Paul meet PC Mizen (as per the testimonies I believe), and given it appears to take about 3 minutes for Cross/Paul to cover the distance from Nichols to PC Mizen (they're estimated walking speed is 3.6 mph, a bit faster than average walking speed, which makes sense as they are late for work), then if we backtrack PC Neil 3 minutes from finding Nichols he would be around the red line, going towards Buck's Row.

              Cross/Lechmere and Paul would be passed Queen Anne Street before he makes the bend, so neither would see the other, and when Neil makes it to Buck's Row and turns east, Cross/Lechmere and Paul would be turning north on Baker's Row. This starts to make more sense to me as it seemed almost impossible for Cross/Lechmere and Paul to have come from Nichols to PC Mizen and not cross paths with PC Neil, if he just came up Baker's Row and turned into Buck's Row and just went east. Those northern streets put him "out of the way" while Lechmere/Cross pass through.

              It also means, that JtR could have seen PC Neil come up and turn up Thomas Street, long before either Cross/Lechmere or Paul enter Buck's Row. JtR then might have fled east, rather than west if that were the case. Mind you, knowing PC Neil has just gone north, he might dash passed heading west figuring he's got time before PC Neil's return. Hard to say as anything is possible.

              Oh, and remember, this is all assuming the newspaper report of the beat is accurate, that I've not missed anything, and all other such cautions.

              - Jeff


              Click image for larger version

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              You will find lots of maps like that and very similar debate in my work Jeff, great minds and such .

              i have offered all the routes that have been suggested over the years, i make a choice but its open to debate.

              the police code says an average walking speed of 2.5mph, so no issue with 2.6.


              Steve

              Comment


              • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                Hello Jeff,

                Neil entered Bucks Row from Thomas St.

                "He deposed that on Friday morning, at a quarter to four o'clock, he was going down Buck's-row, Whitechapel, from Thomas-street to Brady-street."
                that could depend on how you read it Dusty, on where the paper believed Bucks Row started, but it probably does mean he entered at Thomas St, so i have allowed for that too, doubling back to thomas street, via cross street, or simply excluding Queen Ann.


                Steve

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                  Yah, I'm trying to work out the nitty gritty, and not quite sure how to fit that in. I've been thinking alone 3 general lines:

                  1) the "from Thomas-street to Brady street" is just to indicate direction of travel only (which fits what I've got). I don't like this, though, as Baker's Row is the more
                  "main" street to use as a direction marker, etc. and it feels like dismissing the testimony out of hand. I would rather explore other options first to see if something sensible can be made of it.

                  2) I've got the detail of the beat wrong (probably) and he goes up and down Thomas street, then over to Queen Anne and and down it, but he spotted the body before going up Queen Anne. Not sure I'm happy with that as Polly's body is described as being in the dark and hard to see from a distance, but that's by Cross/Lechmere who's not on patrol but walking to work. Maybe it was more visible to PC Neil as he's looking for things out of the ordinary?

                  3) Another way I could have the beat wrong is that upon reaching the "Buck's Row-Queen Anne" intersection he then returns up Queen Anne back over to Thomas, and then back down to Buck's Row. That way, all portions of those northern streets are covered twice (both sides of the street) and he covers the section of Buck's Row I've left not covered. That adds another 165.8 yards (151.640 metres), which would make his patrol speed 2.8 mph, again, slightly below average walking speed. That's sort of my current favorite option, but I may have overlooked other options. If we go with that, then rather being at the red line, he's would now be just starting to head West on the cross street between Queen Anne Street And Thomas (which, funnily enough, is called Cross Street). But, that really starts threading the needle as he's going to reach the other end of Cross Street turn south on Thomas and reach Buck's Row in 1 minute, and Cross/Lechmere will only have reached the end of Queen Anne Street. However, given the margin of error in the timings, that's actually pretty close. If Cross/Lechmere leave a minute earlier, they end up passed Thomas and almost out of Buck's Row before PC Neil re-emerges out of Thomas and into Buck's Row again.

                  Happy to get some suggestions. Obviously, there is the possibility the newspaper has the beat wrong, but again, I would rather not dismiss something if it actually does make sense.

                  - Jeff
                  Jeff,

                  the body would be impossible to see until he got past the Board School, certainly not possible from Queen Anne or Thomas.



                  If you hang on a week, all the options are clearly covered. Possible positions for the carmen and Neil are covered in great detail.

                  When the carmen leave the body, assuming they are walking at about 3.5mph and he at 2.5, the closest he is to the body, without being seen is around 3 minutes.

                  if you take the shorter suggested beats, the gap gets longer not shorter oddly enough.


                  if the speeds vary and they are walking faster it comes down by a few seconds.


                  Steve

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                    Ok, based on a story in The Echo (Sept 21, 1888; Thanks for the pointer Steve!), I've traced out what appears to be PC Neil's beat. It's described like this:

                    ...the third constable would commence at Brady street, cover Whitechapel road, Baker's row, Thomas street, Queen Anne street, and Buck's row, to Brady street, and all the interior, this consisting of about ten streets, courts, passage, &c....

                    So, I've traced around those streets and up and back down "all the interior" streets and passages. I've made one or two judgement calls, such as only the N-S bit of Thomas Street, as another PC in Baker's Row I'm assuming would do the E-W portion, and I'm assuming he doesn't go all the way back down Thomas but cuts over to Queen Anne Street, does that, then back to Buck's Row. His patrol would be in a clockwise direction.

                    The total distance (in yards) is 2,297.4 (2100.735 metres), which works out to about 2.6 miles per hour (76.7 y/min) patrol speed if it takes him 30 minutes as testified. That's a bit slower than the average walking speed, which to me makes sense. If PC Neil finds Nichols at about the same time that Cross/Paul meet PC Mizen (as per the testimonies I believe), and given it appears to take about 3 minutes for Cross/Paul to cover the distance from Nichols to PC Mizen (they're estimated walking speed is 3.6 mph, a bit faster than average walking speed, which makes sense as they are late for work), then if we backtrack PC Neil 3 minutes from finding Nichols he would be around the red line, going towards Buck's Row.

                    Cross/Lechmere and Paul would be passed Queen Anne Street before he makes the bend, so neither would see the other, and when Neil makes it to Buck's Row and turns east, Cross/Lechmere and Paul would be turning north on Baker's Row. This starts to make more sense to me as it seemed almost impossible for Cross/Lechmere and Paul to have come from Nichols to PC Mizen and not cross paths with PC Neil, if he just came up Baker's Row and turned into Buck's Row and just went east. Those northern streets put him "out of the way" while Lechmere/Cross pass through.

                    It also means, that JtR could have seen PC Neil come up and turn up Thomas Street, long before either Cross/Lechmere or Paul enter Buck's Row. JtR then might have fled east, rather than west if that were the case. Mind you, knowing PC Neil has just gone north, he might dash passed heading west figuring he's got time before PC Neil's return. Hard to say as anything is possible.

                    Oh, and remember, this is all assuming the newspaper report of the beat is accurate, that I've not missed anything, and all other such cautions.

                    - Jeff


                    Click image for larger version

Name:	PCNeil_beat.jpg
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                    one further possibility Jeff is that he Does not enter Thomas street from Bucks Row/whites Row, But the East west section of it from Bakers Row, which is also consistent with the Echo and the timing can also be made to work.


                    Steve

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

                      that could depend on how you read it Dusty, on where the paper believed Bucks Row started, but it probably does mean he entered at Thomas St, so i have allowed for that too, doubling back to thomas street, via cross street, or simply excluding Queen Ann.


                      Steve
                      To correspond to the "right side of the street" aspect of some reports, and as I can only make sense of that if that refers to the right side of Thomas Street, I've redone the route by having him go passed Thomas to Queen Anne Street, patrol that to the end, then return to Cross Street, cut over to Thomas, up then back down. This still covers all the streets and such, and this version, with a bit less double patrols on some areas, ends up at 2.52 mph, which is pretty smack on the patrol speed you mention. I don't see any other way for someone else to patrol Queen Anne and Elizabeth Place (the L offshoot), so I'm reluctant to omit it entirely.

                      - Jeff


                      Click image for larger version

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ID:	710744

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                        To correspond to the "right side of the street" aspect of some reports, and as I can only make sense of that if that refers to the right side of Thomas Street, I've redone the route by having him go passed Thomas to Queen Anne Street, patrol that to the end, then return to Cross Street, cut over to Thomas, up then back down. This still covers all the streets and such, and this version, with a bit less double patrols on some areas, ends up at 2.52 mph, which is pretty smack on the patrol speed you mention. I don't see any other way for someone else to patrol Queen Anne and Elizabeth Place (the L offshoot), so I'm reluctant to omit it entirely.

                        - Jeff


                        Click image for larger version

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ID:	710744
                        I have 5 Variations on the Echo Data including something similar to your suggestion here Jeff, any of them could be possible.
                        I am eager to see what you think of the variations, so pressing on with finalizing the work.

                        Of course the Echo could be wrong, and i discuss this too. All we know for sure is the beat went as far as Bakers Row.


                        Steve

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

                          I have 5 Variations on the Echo Data including something similar to your suggestion here Jeff, any of them could be possible.
                          I am eager to see what you think of the variations, so pressing on with finalizing the work.

                          Of course the Echo could be wrong, and i discuss this too. All we know for sure is the beat went as far as Bakers Row.


                          Steve
                          Yes, I think I've had about 3 variations so far as well, and patrol speeds have ranged from 2.5, 2.6, and 2.8 mph I think, so all in the right ball park. And yes, while the Echo could be wrong, given the distance and the 30 minute patrol time seem to produce the police recommended patrol speeds, I think that points to them being accurate. Well, it certainly doesn't indicate there's something clearly wrong. So far, regardless of which variation I've looked at, it suggests that PC Neil was in the "Thomas - Queen Anne Street" section of his beat when Cross/Lechmere and Paul headed out to Buck's Row and they exit before he re-emerges. Also, that would mean he started that portion of his beat before Cross/Lechmere arrived, which would explain why PC Neil never sees them.

                          It also could mean that JtR saw PC Neil enter Buck's Row and headed east up Buck's Row before Cross/Lechmere arrived, or he headed West out through Baker's Row while PC Neil was up in that section (or South down to Whitechappel via Court or the southern section of Thomas), or around the school and east up Winthrop, or (most unlikely) the murder occurred during the time he was patrolling that section (but that time window is awfully tight). If JtR did spot PC Neil, that could explain why the mutilations were less than they were for Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly, - he was interrupted before removing organs. Of course, it could also be that because it was the first of the series, he just didn't go as far as he did later. But, it would place the murder very close to the time of discovery.

                          - Jeff

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                            Yes, I think I've had about 3 variations so far as well, and patrol speeds have ranged from 2.5, 2.6, and 2.8 mph I think, so all in the right ball park. And yes, while the Echo could be wrong, given the distance and the 30 minute patrol time seem to produce the police recommended patrol speeds, I think that points to them being accurate. Well, it certainly doesn't indicate there's something clearly wrong. So far, regardless of which variation I've looked at, it suggests that PC Neil was in the "Thomas - Queen Anne Street" section of his beat when Cross/Lechmere and Paul headed out to Buck's Row and they exit before he re-emerges. Also, that would mean he started that portion of his beat before Cross/Lechmere arrived, which would explain why PC Neil never sees them.

                            It also could mean that JtR saw PC Neil enter Buck's Row and headed east up Buck's Row before Cross/Lechmere arrived, or he headed West out through Baker's Row while PC Neil was up in that section (or South down to Whitechappel via Court or the southern section of Thomas), or around the school and east up Winthrop, or (most unlikely) the murder occurred during the time he was patrolling that section (but that time window is awfully tight). If JtR did spot PC Neil, that could explain why the mutilations were less than they were for Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly, - he was interrupted before removing organs. Of course, it could also be that because it was the first of the series, he just didn't go as far as he did later. But, it would place the murder very close to the time of discovery.

                            - Jeff
                            Yes we are definitely in the same ball park, i suggest that when the Carmen pass along bucks row, he is either in the Northern section of Queen Anne, before the slight bend heading south, or he is in Cross street. Those locations put him the closest distance from the murder site depending on the exact route.


                            Steve

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

                              i suggest that when the Carmen pass along
                              "Sur la place chacun passe, chacun vient, chacun va" (opening chorus of Carmen )
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                                "Sur la place chacun passe, chacun vient, chacun va" (opening chorus of Carmen )
                                love it,

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