Jacob The Ripper?

[tji]

Hi all


We have to look at Nathan Levy born 1887. There is a Nathan Levy born in Whitechapel in July 1887 (The only one I could find.) If this is our Nathan, then doing the maths (we can afford to be out by a few weeks either way) that would mean he was concieved about Oct/Sept 1886. As far as we know Jacob served the full year in Essex Asylum from April 1886 - April 1887

Chris has found that there is a Nathan Levy born 3rd quarter of 1886 in the City of London, which means that there is a least one candidate likely for Nathan Levy being concieved before Jacob went into Essex Asylum.


Tj

[Errata]

Chris has found that there is a Nathan Levy born 3rd quarter of 1886 in the City of London, which means that there is a least one candidate likely for Nathan Levy being concieved before Jacob went into Essex Asylum.


Tj

It occurs to me that if we had the marriage records for the children, it would tell us a lot about any potential congenital syphilis in the family. It seems unlikely given that Levy's wife survived him by a good 30 years, but as far as I know she never remarried and there may be a reason for that.

My theory is, any child with congenital syphilis who lived would be a visibly ineligible mate. While there certainly is not a single "type" of deformity seen in children with CS, there is quite a list to choose from, and someone displaying any of these defects would not be considered for marriage.

And I say this because quite a bit of motive attributed to Levy was that he had transmitted syphilis to his children. Well, that's not really how it works, so better to say that he had transmitted it to his wife, who transmitted it to his children. Although to be fair, if she was being treated for syphilis, the mercury was far more likely to harm the fetus that the syphilis.

[tji]

Hi Eratta

Good logic, we have already tried to research this.

For some reason Sarah did not marry again. Maybe she had enough problems with her Jacob, figured she preferred being single.

Joseph we haven't found out if he married
Isaac Married Hannah Harries in 1907
Lewis married Dinah Solomons
Hannah married ? Freshwater (we know this from Sarah's headstone)
Nathan we haven't out found yet
John/Jacob haven't found out yet
Caroline dies between 1901 and 1911
Moss married Nellie Hunt.


There also wasn't the gaps in the birth of the children normally found in women with syphilis. (They miscarry for 3 year I believe on average before going full term)

Tj

[tji]

Hi all

Thanks to the excellent Chris (Phillips) - we now have the information on Rebecca Solomons. (Caroline's eldest child.)

Chris has found the marriage certificate for Rebecca Solomons in the Great Synagogue Registers.

Sorry I can't paste it to the page so I will just type out the relevant information.

The marriage was solemnized at the Great Synagogue in the Parish of St James Duke's Place in the City of London.

On 6th May 1856 Nathan Hyams age - full condition bachelor Rank or profession fishmonger Residence at time of marriage 107 Middlesex Street Whitechapel Father's name and surname Joshua Hyams Rank or profession of father Fishmonger.

Rebecca Solomons age - minor condition spinster rank or profession (blank) Residence at time of marriage 111 Middlesex Street Whitechapel. Father's name and surname Joshua Solomons Rank or profession of father Deceased.

A few things we should note - Rebecca was classed as a minor even though she was 17.

We know it is 'our' Rebecca because Joseph and Caroline (Jacob's parents)lived at 111 Middlesex Street.

For some reason it states that Nathan's father was called Joshua when in his name is Joseph Hyams (he marries a Julia Joel). Maybe some confusion with Rebecca's father named Joshua.

As just stated above we now know Rebecca and Jane's father was called Joshua. Therefore we have to believe that Abraham is indeed her father's name.

Chris has also found a death registration for a Joshua Solomon in the first quarter of 1846, and a burial entry for a Joshua Solomons on 23 March at Brady Street. I think we can assume this is likely to be our Joshua.

Rebecca and Nathan are living at 123 Middlesex Street in 1883 when it is noted that on the 19 Oct 1883 Nathan committed suicide by hanging to the banister of a staircase. It is also noted that Rebecca, the daughter of Joshua Solomons, was born c 1839 in Whitechapel.

Tj

[Errata]

There also wasn't the gaps in the birth of the children normally found in women with syphilis. (They miscarry for 3 year I believe on average before going full term)

Tj

I'm not 100%, but I think it's possible that math was applied in an odd way somewhere. I think 20% of kids with CS didn't make it to two years old, but it's transmitted during secondary syphilis which can last from 6 weeks to 3 years or more. But to my knowledge syphilis does not actually interfere with a fetus developing (but does affect fetal development if that makes sense at all). In essence, there is no reason for the mother's body to reject the fetus unless it is so malformed as to either die or be unrecognizable to the body, and that would be the exception not the rule.

Although now that I think about it, mercury poisoning can absolutely cause abortion, and anyone with syphilis who could remotely afford mercury would be using it. Depending on the way the mercury was applied (internally or externally) it could easily still affect the body years later... including reproduction. Which could result in a three year average for an inhospitable uterus. What a polite phrase.

Of course, that much mercury puts people into the "mad as a hatter" exposure levels... I don't know. Why three years? Do you know?

[tji]

Hi Eratta

Here's an article I read - I have put in bold the piece about miscarriages thorugh syphilis. Hope it helps.

Hereditary Syphilis. - Syphilis is one of the diseases which is known to be transmitted from parent to child. It may be manifested in the child at the time of birth, or may become evident some months, or even years, afterward. The symptoms of syphilis derived from the parents - and therefore called hereditary or congenital syphilis-vary somewhat according to the stage of the disease with which the parents were affected at the time of conception.

Syphilis is a frequent cause of abortion and miscarriage, and in general it is true that the chances of abortion are greater if conception take place soon after the disease is contracted than if it be postponed until a later period. If conception occur during the existence of the primary sore, or during the presence of the secondary symptoms - that is, within six or eight months after the disease is contracted - abortion almost invariably occurs ; and if a pregnant woman contract the disease during the first six or seven months of her pregnancy, a miscarriage usually results. Thus it often happens that a woman will suffer two, three or four abortions, and finally bring into the world a living child at full term. In these cases it is usually observed that the later children are retained in the womb a longer time than those which were conceived immediately ^.fterthe disease was contracted. Thus the first abortion may occur at the third month, a second at the fourth or fifth month, a third at the sixth or seventh, and so on. In other words, the ability to retain and nourish the foetus to the full term increases when the virulence of the syphilitic poison wears itself out.The symptoms of congenital syphilis which appear at or after birth, are usually seen on the skin and mucous membranes. Sometimes the child is brought into the world with a rash upon the skin, consisting of large blisters which may contain watery fluid, or may have pus (matter) in them. Such children are often born dead, though they may have lived until within a few days or weeks of birth, and if they are born alive, they rarely live more than a few weeks.


Tracy

[Errata]

Hi Eratta

Here's an article I read - I have put in bold the piece about miscarriages thorugh syphilis. Hope it helps.

My bad. You are totally right. I have been concentrating so much on the affects of syphilis on live births that I glossed over miscarriage numbers. I'm wondering if the circumstance presented is for someone actively trying to conceive vs. the passive conception that tends to be more common. It's kind of hard to get a handle on the science since syphilis has been curable for the past 70 years or so. I'm not sure that Victorian doctors always came to the correct conclusions about a disease they could only observe symptomatically.

[Sister Hyde]

i've been reading this thread several times now (bless the job of receptionist ahahahah), very important to me since i consider jacob levy as the n1 suspect, the most likely to be the Ripper... this guy, who was providing him cattle, any luck with him yet??? i don't see him as a suspect, but could he have mention something about Levy (although i'm sure if he "ruined" his wife's butcher business, it means that he must have messed up a lot, especially with his supplier and that anything he could say about Levy would be negativ and incriminating), i'm talking with my grandmother a lot lately to try to get a better insight of what the jewish community must have been like back then, it's tough cause she's been a bit "brainwashed" by the nuns who hid and raised her during WW2 after her parents got shiped to Poland, she seems to ignore her roots and even her own parents. lucky Errata is here to enlight us on some cultural points (which i find very interesting since i'm also very frustrated of being kept away from my original culture, which in the end, only date back to her generation generations).
Sarah Levy did say things about her husband being insane and wandering around all night and so on... did she ever say anything else by any chance??? did anyone got lucky so far with researching descendants?? where are all these documents? according to you, only mister King saw them... but where from???if documents are seen by one they should be avaible for others too. to me it seems that Joseph levy was holding something back (and since he knew 2 or 3 of the prime suspect that still doesn't help much). i don't even think the syphilis here could have been the main trigger to the murders (and i certainly don't think the murders were fueled by syphilitic psychosis, but just by psychosis, just one trigger among others). seriously you have to help me, even with smoking, it's been preventing me from sleeping for too long!!!!! i somehow feel that this could be it. and there are too little evidence to make it religion.

for other curiosity my dad bought me the ripper video game last week.... only started it but the first thing that stroke me was that the whole setting is OBVIOUSLY drawn from real 1888 pictures and maps.

[Debra A]

Hi Eratta

Here's an article I read - I have put in bold the piece about miscarriages thorugh syphilis. Hope it helps.

Hi Tracy, interesting info.
I remember when this subject was covered in 'Who Do You Think You Are' when they 'did' Martin Freeman the actor.
There was definitely a pattern of miscarriage or stillbirth there, and explained by a modern medic. Interestingly, the fact that Martin's grandmother was born blind was put down to the fact that her parents had Syphilis too.

[Errata]

Hi Tracy, interesting info.
I remember when this subject was covered in 'Who Do You Think You Are' when they 'did' Martin Freeman the actor.
There was definitely a pattern of miscarriage or stillbirth there, and explained by a modern medic. Interestingly, the fact that Martin's grandmother was born blind was put down to the fact that her parents had Syphilis too.

actually blindness is one of the most recognizable symptoms of CS. I think my dad told me they even make a special effort to protect an infants eyes during birth and rinse them afterward to be absolutely sure that no virus contacts the eyes. Of course he's old enough that his mentor was probably birthing babies during the late 19th century. He may have picked up some archaic habits.

Sister Hyde: Sherlock Homes vs Jack the Ripper?

[Sister Hyde]

Sister Hyde: Sherlock Homes vs Jack the Ripper?

yeah that one. i've only been wandering in whitechapel so far but i love the graphics.

[tji]

Hi Sister

I haven't really had a chance to look much into George Bolam as of yet. While anything is possible for a Ripper suspect, he doesn't ring alarm bells as Jacob did yet.

I am sorry to hear about your grandmother, maybe with you showing an interest in her history, it will make her curious again in her history also.

As far as I am aware there is nothing been recorded by Sarah other than the documents we have already, there are no records from that time to suggest police though Jacob was Jtr - although I suspect he probably would have been interviewed like many other local butchers.

I am not trying to say that Mark King is the only person to see these documents, what I am saying is that he is one of the authorities from way back when Jacob first became a suspect and he has seen a lot of documents, we used his (and others)work as a basis for our own. Thankfully nowadays it is a lot easier to research things from your own home, so what may have taken weeks 10 years ago can be done in an afternoon nowadays. Also I have had some great help of a few top notch researchers recently so we have made a lot of headway this last few months. Until recently I was not aware where all the documents could be found. The documents are available to others if they are willing/able to journey into London to look at them.

No I don't think that the act that he may be had syphilis would have been enough for him to do the acts that were done.
I personally don't believe religion had anything to do with the killings, regardless of who the suspect is.
Hope that helps you get a good nights sleep.

We have got some new facts on board at the moment but until we have corroborated everything I wouldn't be comfortable putting it on the boards.

Quite a few people have commented on the game, but as of yet I haven't played it.


Tj

[tji]

Hi Debs

Hi Tracy, interesting info.
I remember when this subject was covered in 'Who Do You Think You Are' when they 'did' Martin Freeman the actor.
There was definitely a pattern of miscarriage or stillbirth there, and explained by a modern medic. Interestingly, the fact that Martin's grandmother was born blind was put down to the fact that her parents had Syphilis too

Thanks for the information, I personally haven't seen any of the 'who do you think you are.' My dad has watched one with Stephen Fry and he said it was brilliant the way they got all the information together. A very moving epsiode apparently.


Tracy x

[Sister Hyde]

well, i'll be off to London on my very own to sneak at this archives this spring i think (if my salary as a receptionist allows me cause i've just checked the prices of the hotels in Whitechapel, and even the Ibis hotel would cost me about 100 a night). what if levy was never interwiewed by the police. if he had already been to jail, was insane and had already almost ruined his wife's business, maybe he wasn't working as a butcher on the moment of the murders and managed to slip through the net. new facts uh??? i wanna know, please don't make me long... or else i'll spend plenty more sleepless night.
I don't think i'll get any "cultural/religious" information from my grandmother, i think the nuns have definitely managed to brainwash her (which must be very easy on a very young child who's being placed here to be hidden from the Nazis and ends up growing there up to age 16, she even denies being a jew, very pathetic for a woman called Yvana David)

[Errata]

I don't think i'll get any "cultural/religious" information from my grandmother, i think the nuns have definitely managed to brainwash her (which must be very easy on a very young child who's being placed here to be hidden from the Nazis and ends up growing there up to age 16, she even denies being a jew, very pathetic for a woman called Yvana David)

I take it she was a part of Kindertransport? Jews throughout history have had a multitude of identity problems, and in fact one of those periods was during the late 19th century. But the Holocaust was very different, and I doubt the nuns had a great deal of impact on her Jewish identity. Jews have sort of a unique situation in which we have a religious identity and a cultural identity. And a great deal of this began in Victorian times. There are any number of people who identify themselves as Jews, but are atheists. They embrace the cultural identity, but not the religious one. In fact, in my whole family as far as I know I am the only one who believes in any kind of god, and it's not even the Jewish one.

Before Victorian times, Jews were much more likely to have their identity externally imposed. But we also didn't have the religion/culture split we have today. If a Jew married a non-Jew, they were no longer Jewish. If they were an atheist, no longer Jewish. The Victorian Era was the beginning of that split, and it was slow going. Then the Holocaust started, and all of the definitions didn't matter anymore. Though no one in the Jewish community knew you or recognized you as a Jew, you could still go to the gas chambers.

And for someone like your Grandmother, a child, with no control over even her basic survival, it was like a nightmare. She probably wasn't even old enough to know what "Jewish" was, but she knew it was a potentially deadly thing to be. And she knew that because of it she lost her family, and her friends, and her home. Why on earth should she embrace it? Judaism is tough... it's not a loving religion, it's not an easy culture. I'm always surprised when people convert. She would have had no Jewish education during the war... and she would have had no reason to pursue it afterwards. It's an abstract concept that killed millions, and personally hurt her terribly. Why would she go back to being a Jew, especially when she was likely young enough that there were almost no memories of Judaism? Your grandmother isn't Jewish. The religion and the culture were no part of her formative years, just the reason for a great deal of personal tragedy.

Being born Jewish gives you a free pass into Judaism, but it doesn't make you Jewish. That you have to choose, and there is no shame whatsoever in her choosing to not be Jewish. Many did, after the Holocaust, after the Inquisition. Sometimes later generations embraced it again. But because it is something that is so informative on a person, it cannot be compelled. So give her a break... she is a product of the sum of her experiences, and if she has led a full and meaningful life without Judaism being a part of it, more power to her.

well, that was probably ragingly off topic