Jacob The Ripper?

[Sister Hyde]

I can only guess that after he had started his sentence his behaviour suggested that he was mentally ill and the prison authorities had him examined and removed to the asylum.

It may be that there is some documentation among the Home Office records - or at least a reference to the transfer in the registers of correspondence. Is anything more known about when he was transferred to the asylum, or where the information about this was found in the first place?

I wish it was easy like we could just phone and say "hey i'm a ripper case addict could you give me infos?" but it's indeed strange that they took him so far from the prison, so yeah it's either that no asylum were treating that kind of disorders in a closer one, or that the family arranged something. has any ripperologist ever managed to find and/or talk to any descendant of the Levy family?

[Jimi]

The Essex County Asylum 1886

Hi All
I have to agree with Errata that Jacob would have been sent to Warley Hospital,Brentwood as this was also Essex County Asylum and the ONLY county asylum in use, Goodmayes opened 1901, Colchester opened 1913 and Runwell in 1936.
Unfortunately, Warley suffered a massive fire in the 80`s which destroyed a substantial amount of their patient records. I still plan to contact Essex Record Office with jacobs details but this could turn out to be another paper lost in time .
If anyone is interested i did discover a site which has pictures and staff stories about Warley. The pictures are only of an empty and stripped hospital but the stories include the use of Opium on early patients and ECT.
These can be found at MECHANISED.ORG .UK.
Keep Well
Jimi

[Sister Hyde]

there are also good genealogy sites specialized for the jewish community in england. i think that might be a source as well, not especially for the Levy, but yeah of course i'm sure that's nothing knew to you guys, i'm more here to be taught than to teach. maaaan i've been on this forum for a whole week and i'm sure i still haven't gone through half of the content!!!

[Errata]

"In 1886 he[Jacob levy] was committed to the Essex County asylum after complaining of hearing strange noises and saying that he felt compelled to do acts that his conscience could not stand, he also felt that if he was not restrained, he will do acts of violence to someone. "

This is what always bothered me. in 1886 he is put in an Asylum with schizoid symptoms. He is released after a year. Now, he is also put in an Asylum in '91 with similar symptoms, and dies there of syphilis.

If his symptoms of 86 were due to tertiary syphilis, they would not have released him. If he had syphilis, and was presenting with those symptoms independently, they still would have assumed it was the syphilis. Since there is no remission of psychiatric symptoms of neurosyphilis, he wouldnt have gotten better to be released and then go back in 5 years later.

in 91, there is no reason to think that it isn't tertiary syphilis. Except for the previous hospitalization. i'm almost positive people didn't live that long with neurosyphilis, and if somehow they did, they would not be functional. i mean, the sensory neurons go to crap. he couldn't work, or walk well, he would be house bound. and it would completely clear him as JtR.

is it possible to go from clean to dead from syphilis in just 5 years? unless syphilis has the same viral load component AIDS does (and I don't think it does) then that would be nigh impossible.

I had always assumed that Levy being in an asylum in 86 was due to external factors. I'm not really sure why. But if he is legitimately symptomatic...

30 is not an unusual onset age for schizophrenia. Symptoms fit, plus a remission of symptoms is par for schizophrenia and would result in release. 35 is an unusual age for death. And nobody dies of schizophrenia. People did die of syphilis, symptoms fit, but the first asylum would have kept him if they thought it was syphilis. Presenting with an onset of schizophrenia at age 30 and dying of neurosyphilis 5 years later really strains credulity.

is there an answer here I am not seeing?

[sleekviper]

How hard is it to detect late stage syphilis, and how able were they to do so in 1886? I thought that symptoms were hidden by this point, so if he had untreated syphilis from a period before 1886, it could pass as something else. Since it may have been a period of years prior, and unless someone said something on his behalf, maybe they could not tell?

[Errata]

How hard is it to detect late stage syphilis, and how able were they to do so in 1886? I thought that symptoms were hidden by this point, so if he had untreated syphilis from a period before 1886, it could pass as something else. Since it may have been a period of years prior, and unless someone said something on his behalf, maybe they could not tell?

The symptoms of late stage syphilis are different, but not hidden. Massive benign tumors for example. The progression was well known in 1886. Latent syphilis is asymptomatic, but it is completely asymptomatic. He could not be otherwise asymptomatic except for the hearing voices part.And neurosyphilis cannot go latent. So if he was psychotic because of neurosyphilis, it could only get worse. MS like symptoms, psychosis, seizures, neuralgia... it would be awful, and readily apparent. Likewise, due to the obvious and painful nature of the primary and secondary stages, its unlikely that the disease could go unnoticed. And at this point Asylum workers and doctors had been watching syphilis patients sicken and die for centuries. I don't think they could miss it. Unless he also had malaria, which drastically slows the progression down, but he couldn't have gotten malaria in England.

They treated syphilis with mercury. Clearly it didn't help, and mercury poisoning causes neurological symptoms as well. I'm tempted to think that someone assumed he had syphilis at some point and slowly killed him with mercury, but mercury poisoning deaths are distinctive, and someone would have noticed. And he died very young. even for someone with syphilis. I wonder if something could have fooled the 91 asylum into thinking it was syphilis when it wasn't?

If he in fact had neurosyphilis in 86, that rules him out as JtR. He would have lost most sensation and dexterity by then. If he didn't have it in 91, you lose the only motive ever attributed to him. It all hinges on him contracting after a psychotic episode. Not impossible, but since the first assumption in 86 would be that it was syphilis, him being a youngish man, i would think that experience would not drive a man into the arms of prostitutes.

[Chris]

I have to agree with Errata that Jacob would have been sent to Warley Hospital,Brentwood as this was also Essex County Asylum and the ONLY county asylum in use, Goodmayes opened 1901, Colchester opened 1913 and Runwell in 1936.
Unfortunately, Warley suffered a massive fire in the 80`s which destroyed a substantial amount of their patient records. I still plan to contact Essex Record Office with jacobs details but this could turn out to be another paper lost in time .

I'm still a bit puzzled by where the information about the transfer came from, if not from the Essex County Asylum records. I can't see any mention of surviving Holloway records from this period. Perhaps it would have been recorded at Stone as part of Jacob's previous history?

I understand that it has been difficult to track down the sources of all the information about Jacob in the older published articles.

[Errata]

I'm still a bit puzzled by where the information about the transfer came from, if not from the Essex County Asylum records. I can't see any mention of surviving Holloway records from this period. Perhaps it would have been recorded at Stone as part of Jacob's previous history?

I understand that it has been difficult to track down the sources of all the information about Jacob in the older published articles.

I would think, though I have no actual knowledge of this, that anytime there would be a transfer there would be a county or judicial record. For accounting purposes.

looking back on it, because of the somewhat oddly formatted article, there is no mention of why he was institutionalized in 86. So we are sort of back to any reason under the sun for the transfer.

Stone might somehow have his previous medical records, but this was before the age of inter-hospital cooperation. Stone would likely not have gotten them from Warley. If they had it, it would be from Levy or his wife mentioning it at some point, and then discussing the details with the doctors. His wife would have known dates and places, but likely not about any diagnosis or treatment given. Levy would only have shared those details if a: he thought it was relevant or b: thought it would help his treatment. Of course he was paranoid at this point, and any modern doctor knows that what is relevant and what the patient thinks is relevant are two vastly different things. And if Stone knew he had neurosyphilis on intake, I cant imagine they would think his previous institutionalization was important. Whatever he had then, they knew what he had now, and what symptoms he would have.

My guess is that if any records survived, it would be at a centralized location where prison records were stored (if such a place even existed), or at a centralized location where prisoner transfer to asylums were stored, which could be with the courts the prisons or the mental health sanitation whatever they called it department.

[Chris]

I think the excerpt I quoted above makes it clear that these transfers were determined by the Home Secretary, not by a judicial decision. So there may be some surviving Home Office records. I'll try to check whether there are.

Looking again at Christopher Morley's account (http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media...orley/118.html ), I wonder whether he may actually have misinterpreted Mark King's 1999 article on Levy (http://www.casebook.org/suspects/jacoblevy.html ), which was presumably his source.

King says that after being sentenced to imprisonment in 1886 Levy was transferred to the Essex County asylum - no date is given for the transfer - but the other statements about strange noises and so on come under the heading of "additional observations during his term at Stone," rather than being mentioned in connection with the transfer. So it may be that the Stone records specified only the fact that he had previously been treated at the Essex County Asylum. (In my experience "where previously treated" is one of the standard items in asylum records.)

[Errata]

I think the excerpt I quoted above makes it clear that these transfers were determined by the Home Secretary, not by a judicial decision. So there may be some surviving Home Office records. I'll try to check whether there are.

I thought they would make it to court records only because the dispensation of the defendant is usually lodged there. The sentence and the prison they were sentenced to would be in court records, in a logical world if the dispensation of the prisoner changed, that would go there as well.

of course when i had to get a passport the only government agency that had a copy of my birth certificate was the department of transportation, so for all i know you'll find it in the minister of railroads personal files.

[Debra A]

Looking again at Christopher Morley's account (http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media...orley/118.html ), I wonder whether he may actually have misinterpreted Mark King's 1999 article on Levy (http://www.casebook.org/suspects/jacoblevy.html ), which was presumably his source.

King says that after being sentenced to imprisonment in 1886 Levy was transferred to the Essex County asylum - no date is given for the transfer - but the other statements about strange noises and so on come under the heading of "additional observations during his term at Stone," rather than being mentioned in connection with the transfer. So it may be that the Stone records specified only the fact that he had previously been treated at the Essex County Asylum. (In my experience "where previously treated" is one of the standard items in asylum records.)

I think you are right about this, Chris.

In the Stone asylum file is the 'certificate of medical practitioner Form 8' signed by Henry James Sequeira and concluding that Jacob levy is a person of unsound mind, dated 14th Aug 1890.
Included under the 'facts indicating insanity observed by myself at the time of examination' are the statements- feels that if he is not restrained he will do some violence to someone, complains of hearing strange noises.

[tji]

Hi Chris

Thanks for posting the info on Sarah and family. Some interesting information to be gleaned from the article.

When she states that 2 children have died, we only have information on one missing and that is Caroline. We know that she is with her grandparents (the abrahams) in the 1901 census and then we haveno more on her.

The other child must have died young as we have no record of them on census forms or anywhere else.


tj

[Chris]

When she states that 2 children have died, we only have information on one missing and that is Caroline. We know that she is with her grandparents (the abrahams) in the 1901 census and then we haveno more on her.

The other child must have died young as we have no record of them on census forms or anywhere else.

Thanks for this.

Looking at the ages of the children in the census, it seems the only gap really big enough to accommodate another child is the one between Isaac and Lewis, the second and third of the known children. Otherwise I suppose it would have to be twins ...

[tji]

Hi all

Whilst not really part of Jacob Levy per se I thought I would post the information I came across while going through my old notes. They are info Jacob's sons marriages. I thought you may be interested.

29/10/1905 Lewis Levy 22 Cigar Maker 6 Graces Alley
father Jacob Levy deceased butcher.
He married Dinah Solomons 18 17 Grace's Alley
father Phillip Solomons Fishmonger
witnesses H Dancyger and S Defries.


15/04/1907 Isaac Levy 26 Cabinet maker 3 Sandy's Row.
father Jacob Levy deceased butcher.
He married Hannah Harris 23 1a Sandy's Row.
father Mark Harris
Witnesses H Dancyger and S.Defries.

[tji]

Hi Chris


Looking at the ages of the children in the census, it seems the only gap really big enough to accommodate another child is the one between Isaac and Lewis, the second and third of the known children. Otherwise I suppose it would have to be twins

While looking into the births of Jacob and Sarah's children I noticed something that may be of interest. Now what I am putting is total conjecture on my part but it is something I think needs looking into if I am right.

We have to look at Nathan Levy born 1887. There is a Nathan Levy born in Whitechapel in July 1887 (The only one I could find.) If this is our Nathan, then doing the maths (we can afford to be out by a few weeks either way) that would mean he was concieved about Oct/Sept 1886. As far as we know Jacob served the full year in Essex Asylum from April 1886 - April 1887.

Tj